Page 2 of 2

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 23rd, 2019, 12:56 pm
by Bill Ross
Okay, I see, there is no allusion to Isaiah.

But what about the original question:

These are typical translations:

"called saints"
"called [to be] saints"

What about this?:

"[to the] invited, holy [ones]"?

Note:

My thought is that "called to be saints" sounds like a task set before them. "Called saints" sounds like they were saints before they were invited. Neither of those make sense to me.

Paul is writing (among other things) to assure the Ephesians that though they are gentiles they are not second class. They are there because they were invited by God (as we see in the parables of Jesus).

"[to the] invited holy [ones]" has the same problem as "called saints" - it sounds like they were holy in advance.

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: March 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm
by Jonathan Robie
I think it would be helpful if you tried to ask focused questions about specific Greek words or grammatical constructs, leaving out theological concerns. Context is always important, of course. But the focus on B-Greek has to be learning Greek, not answering theological questions in texts beyond your ability to read - that's not what the beginner's forum is for.

Here's the text:
πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις
Whatever Paul's purpose was, he is writing to those in Rome who are ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις. If I were in your shoes, I would start by using a lexicon to read the definition and see other ways this same word is used. For instance:
Matthew 22:14 wrote:πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσιν κλητοί, ὀλίγοι δὲ ἐκλεκτοί.
That is also translated 'called' in many translations. NIV uses 'invited' here. Regardless, I don't think it implies they were holy in advance.

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: August 6th, 2020, 9:37 pm
by Yama Ploskonka
Daniel Semler wrote:
March 19th, 2019, 11:06 am
... it appears that he is asking about whether there are three addressees or just one, with additional qualification (correct me if I'm wrong Bill). Regardless, I have wondered about this myself in this passage.
So have I, I was convinced it was three addressees, but I must learn to be more humble about my convictions as I am learning from y'all. Besides my own feelings regarding κλητοῖς.
Thank you!

Yama

Re: In Romans 1:7, "called to be saints" or "invited, holy"?

Posted: August 6th, 2020, 9:43 pm
by Bill Ross
For myself, at this point, think Jonathon's caveat is probably the most important consideration. The question probably cannot be settled grammatically. It is more settled by how one understands the thrust of what Paul is saying. I'm happy to leave it at that for this context. Thanks for the input.