John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

How can I learn to express my ideas in clear and intelligible Greek?
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1818
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 8th, 2019, 8:23 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 7:05 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 4:11 pm
Not, it's good, because it's ultimately about the Greek, and your instincts are good, because the Greek of John 17:5 in no way supports this "interpretation." How would you say it? A number of possibilities. Try καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ Πάτερ τῇ δόξῃ ἥν μοι προώρισαι κατὰ τὴν γνώμην πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι.
I think it'd be προώρισας ("you predestined") rather than προώρισαι ("you were predestined"). Perhaps change the whole phrase to the aorist passive participle: τῇ δόξῃ τῇ προορισθείσῃ μοι πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι.
Middle voice. Passive would be προωρίσθης. However, I think the form should probably be προωρίσω, not -σαι.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Jason Hare
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Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Jason Hare » December 8th, 2019, 8:37 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 8:23 pm
Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 7:05 pm
I think it'd be προώρισας ("you predestined") rather than προώρισαι ("you were predestined"). Perhaps change the whole phrase to the aorist passive participle: τῇ δόξῃ τῇ προορισθείσῃ μοι πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι.
Middle voice. Passive would be προωρίσθης. However, I think the form should probably be προωρίσω, not -σαι.
As a primary tense, the imperfect doesn't distinguish between middle and passive. Προώρισαι is imperfect middle/passive. You've now posted the aorist passive (προωρίσθης). Either way, the active would be best in the sentence that you initially wrote, no?
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1818
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 8th, 2019, 9:43 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 8:37 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 8:23 pm
Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 7:05 pm
I think it'd be προώρισας ("you predestined") rather than προώρισαι ("you were predestined"). Perhaps change the whole phrase to the aorist passive participle: τῇ δόξῃ τῇ προορισθείσῃ μοι πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι.
Middle voice. Passive would be προωρίσθης. However, I think the form should probably be προωρίσω, not -σαι.
As a primary tense, the imperfect doesn't distinguish between middle and passive. Προώρισαι is imperfect middle/passive. You've now posted the aorist passive (προωρίσθης). Either way, the active would be best in the sentence that you initially wrote, no?
Okay, I think we need a quick paradigm review (at least I do). I composed without thinking, and then thought about it and realized that I had written written the aorist middle wrongly. But my instinct was correct, because I defaulted to the perfect middle/passive form, προώρισαι, which uses the primary tense ending, -μαι, σαι, ται, κτλ. The aorist middle form would be προωρίσω, which uses secondary tense, -μην, σο, το... The imperfect m/p is of course built on the present stem, and would be προωρίζου. I used the middle simply because that was my sense of the Greek, not thinking about how John might have written it, though I think he would have been more likely to use the active. But the middle as a true middle is cool, so there.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Jason Hare
Posts: 673
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 5:28 pm
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Jason Hare » December 8th, 2019, 9:46 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 9:43 pm
Okay, I think we need a quick paradigm review (at least I do). I composed without thinking, and then thought about it and realized that I had written written the aorist middle wrongly. But my instinct was correct, because I defaulted to the perfect middle/passive form, προώρισαι, which uses the primary tense ending, -μαι, σαι, ται, κτλ. The aorist middle form would be προωρίσω, which uses secondary tense, -μην, σο, το... The imperfect m/p is of course built on the present stem, and would be προωρίζου. I used the middle simply because that was my sense of the Greek, not thinking about how John might have written it, though I think he would have been more likely to use the active. But the middle as a true middle is cool, so there.
Right. Προώρισαι is perfect middle/passive. Augmentation instead of reduplication because it begins with a vowel. My bad.
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 8th, 2019, 10:02 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm
Sean Kasabuske wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 4:40 pm
You're the only person I know of who can speak Koine as well as he can English!
With as much respect that I can muster for my friend Barry... :roll:

No native English speaker you meet will speak Koiné as well as they speak English. No one you will meet will speak Koiné better than they speak their native tongue. That is not even a reasonable expectation.
εἶπε, ὦ φιλτατέ μου, σαυτῷ. Of course, you are right, but what we can do is get an excellent sense of the language from what's left to us. What we can never get is the living context in which the language was used on a daily basis, though letters and the colloquia help quite a bit.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1818
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 8th, 2019, 11:02 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Reading the thread again, I guess what you meant to say was that although Barry might understand the text without recourse to English translation, you yourself need it to be translated into English. This isn't how I understood your message initially. Is that what you meant? We do kinda assume on this forum that you have a working knowledge of Greek, especially when you open a new thread in the "Writing Greek" subforum and not in the beginners' forum, per se.
I think he was talking about my rewording of the text.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Jason Hare
Posts: 673
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 5:28 pm
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Jason Hare » December 8th, 2019, 11:47 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 11:02 pm
Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 8:09 pm
Reading the thread again, I guess what you meant to say was that although Barry might understand the text without recourse to English translation, you yourself need it to be translated into English. This isn't how I understood your message initially. Is that what you meant? We do kinda assume on this forum that you have a working knowledge of Greek, especially when you open a new thread in the "Writing Greek" subforum and not in the beginners' forum, per se.
I think he was talking about my rewording of the text.
And the fact that if you didn't translate it into English, he wouldn't understand what changes you were making to the original. (Διὸ ὁ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ προσευχέσθω ἵνα διερμηνεύῃ.... ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ θέλω πέντε λόγους τῷ νοΐ μου λαλῆσαι, ἵνα καὶ ἄλλους κατηχήσω, ἢ μυρίους λόγους ἐν γλώσσῃ.)
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Sean Kasabuske
Posts: 15
Joined: June 13th, 2015, 12:03 am

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Sean Kasabuske » December 9th, 2019, 6:30 am

Jason Hare wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 7:46 pm
Sean Kasabuske wrote:
December 8th, 2019, 7:31 pm
You're one of those folks to takes everything literally, huh? ;-)
That's an odd phrase for hyperbole. If it was hyperbole, perhaps it was intended as an insult to Barry. How am I supposed to read your emotions? All I can see is what you write on the screen. Without a wink, without a laugh emoji, without something or anything at all, I'm left to read your words literally and assume that you're being serious. Perhaps, though, your wink at the end of this quote is intended to mean that you don't really think that I take things literally.

Written mediums do not allow us to read emotions. I don't have your facial expressions or your hear the irony in your voice. So, say what you mean... That's all I can ask.

Added to enable you to read my emotions: :shock: :? 8-) :lol:
I was attempting to offer Barry a compliment via the use of hyperbole. If this now has to become a thread about how poorly I communicate, then just delete the entire thing and let's move on.
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Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1818
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 9th, 2019, 9:41 am

Sean Kasabuske wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 6:30 am

I was attempting to offer Barry a compliment via the use of hyperbole. If this now has to become a thread about how poorly I communicate, then just delete the entire thing and let's move on.
Don't worry about it, it's fine, you asked a legitimate question which hopefully has been answered despite the white noise, ἀλλὰ μὴν Ἱάσων ἐνίοτε σνᾶρκός ἐστι. :lol:
1 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Sean Kasabuske
Posts: 15
Joined: June 13th, 2015, 12:03 am

Re: John 17:5 and Existence in God's Plan

Post by Sean Kasabuske » December 9th, 2019, 7:13 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 9:41 am
Sean Kasabuske wrote:
December 9th, 2019, 6:30 am

I was attempting to offer Barry a compliment via the use of hyperbole. If this now has to become a thread about how poorly I communicate, then just delete the entire thing and let's move on.
Don't worry about it, it's fine, you asked a legitimate question which hopefully has been answered despite the white noise, ἀλλὰ μὴν Ἱάσων ἐνίοτε σνᾶρκός ἐστι. :lol:
Yes, I appreciate the help, thank you:-)
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