Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Leif Strom
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Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Leif Strom » August 27th, 2020, 6:15 pm

Hello,
Does anyone know if the Greek book of Enoch fragments have been dated (or believed to have been dated) - ie when the translations were made, from either Aramaic, or Geez?
If not, may there be a way to determine its age by comparing it to the LXX, and to NT (and to other ancient greek literature)?
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Ken M. Penner » August 28th, 2020, 8:36 am

Leif Strom wrote:
August 27th, 2020, 6:15 pm
Hello,
Does anyone know if the Greek book of Enoch fragments have been dated (or believed to have been dated) - ie when the translations were made, from either Aramaic, or Geez?
If not, may there be a way to determine its age by comparing it to the LXX, and to NT (and to other ancient greek literature)?
Nickelsburg's 1Enoch, 14 wrote:Although the Chester Beatty–Michigan Papyrus provides a fourth-century terminus ad quem for the Greek translation of at least the Epistle of Enoch, the wide usage of the Book of the Watchers by the Greek and Latin fathers of the second to fourth centuries indicates a much earlier date for at least the Book of the Watchers, and the writings of Tertullian suggest that he knew a large part of the corpus (see §6.3.2.6–16). References to the work in Greek in the Epistle of Barnabas indicate 135–38 C.E. as a terminus ad quem (see §6.3.2.3), and the quotation of 1:9 in Jude 14–15* and the use of Enochic material in Revelation indicate that the translation was in place by the end of the first century (see §6.2.7–8). Parallels in the Wisdom of Solomon (see §6.2.7) suggest that the Greek is the product of a Jewish translator who worked before the turn of the era. In such a case, its provenance would have been circles that found compatibility between sapiential and apocalyptic traditions (see §§5.1.1.2–3, 6.2.7).
Footnote:According to James Barr (“Aramaic-Greek Notes on the Book of Enoch I, II,” JSS 23 [1978] 184–98; 24 [1979] 179–92), the translation probably belongs “to the same general stage and stratum as the LXX translation of Daniel” (JSS 24 [1979], 191). The possibility that 7Q4 1–2 preserves a remnant of a Grk. MS. of the Epistle of Enoch has been argued by G.-Wilhelm Nebe, “Möglichkeit und Grenze einer Identifikation,” RevQ 13 (1988 = Mémorial Jean Carmignac) 629–33; and Émile Puech, “Notes sur les fragments grecs du manuscript 7Q4 1 = 1 Henoch 103 et 105, ” RB (1996) 592–600; idem, “Sept fragments de la Lettre d’Hénoch (I Hén 100, 103 et 105) dans la grotte 7 de Qumrân ( (= 7QHén gr),” RevQ 19 (1997–98) 313–23. While this identification would allow us to date the Grk. translation to at least the turn of the era, the fragments are, in my view, too small to allow a certain identification.
I accept the view that the 7Q fragments are from Enoch.
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Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

Leif Strom
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Leif Strom » August 29th, 2020, 10:45 am

Thank you for the answer, it has helped me a lot.
The reason for the question is that I am trying to find out in which time period the word kosmos in the Greek Book of Enoch should be set. In the LXX, it has an astronomical meaning, besides order, ornament, world, while in NT the astronomical meaning is completely gone. I have been trying to find answers on the net to why that happened, but no one seems to know this. Anyway, if Greek Enoch is translated during the LXX era, the word should or could have an astronomical meaning, and perhaps should be translated 'constellations', instead of 'world' (Enoch 20:2).
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Ken M. Penner » August 31st, 2020, 9:19 am

Leif Strom wrote:
August 29th, 2020, 10:45 am
Thank you for the answer, it has helped me a lot.
The reason for the question is that I am trying to find out in which time period the word kosmos in the Greek Book of Enoch should be set. In the LXX, it has an astronomical meaning, besides order, ornament, world, while in NT the astronomical meaning is completely gone. I have been trying to find answers on the net to why that happened, but no one seems to know this. Anyway, if Greek Enoch is translated during the LXX era, the word should or could have an astronomical meaning, and perhaps should be translated 'constellations', instead of 'world' (Enoch 20:2).
Where do you see an astronomical meaning for κόσμος in LXX besides Isaiah (13:10; 24:21; 40:26); Deuteronomy (4:19; 17:3)?
In 1 Enoch, are you talking only about 20:2-4?
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Ken M. Penner
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 31st, 2020, 3:00 pm

Ken M. Penner wrote:
August 31st, 2020, 9:19 am
Where do you see an astronomical meaning for κόσμος in LXX besides Isaiah (13:10; 24:21; 40:26); Deuteronomy (4:19; 17:3)?
In 1 Enoch, are you talking only about 20:2-4?
Looks like the subject is Angelology not Astronomy. Note the syntax in 20.2 vs 20.4. Is τὸν κόσμον τῶν φωστήρων a reference to astronomical entities or a metaphysical dominion? In apocalyptic stars often represent supernatural beings; τῶν φωστήρων might represent a collective reference to Angelic beings.
19.3
..... ἀνθρώπων ὡς ἐγὼ εἶδον.
20.2
ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων ὁ ἐπὶ τοῦ κόσμου καὶ τοῦ ταρτάρου.
20.3
Ῥαφαὴλ, ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων
ἀγγέλων ὁ ἐπὶ τῶν πνευμάτων τῶν ἀνθρώπων.
20.4
Ῥαγουήλ, ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων
ὁ ἐκδικῶν τὸν κόσμον τῶν φωστήρων.
20.5
Μιχαήλ, ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων ὃς ἐπὶ τῶν
τοῦ λαοῦ ἀγαθῶν τέτακται καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ χαῷ.
20.6
Σαριήλ, ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων ὁ ἐπὶ τῶν
πνευμάτων οἵτινες ἐπὶ τῷ πνεύματι ἁμαρτάνουσιν.
20.7
Γαβριήλ, ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων
ὁ ἐπὶ τοῦ παραδείσου καὶ τῶν δρακόντων καὶ χερουβίν. Ῥεμειήλ, ὁ εἷς τῶν ἁγίων
ἀγγέλων ὃν ἔταξεν ὁ θεὸς ἐπὶ τῶν ἀνισταμένων. ὀνόματα ζʹ ἀρχαγγέλων.

Apocalypsis Enochi (recensio ap. Syncellum)
“Apocalypsis Henochi Graece”, Ed. Black, M.
Leiden: Brill, 1970
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Leif Strom
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Leif Strom » August 31st, 2020, 5:11 pm

I see the verses mentioned as referring to astronomical objects, stars, planets, and therefore interpret kosmos, in these cases, as meaning constellations, orders of stars, or lights.
The use of kosmos in Greek Enoch is in 8:1 and 18:1, both in the original meaning (ornament), while in 20:2 and 4 it is about dominions of angels.
The angels Uriel and Reguel is set over kosmos and tartarus, and the kosmos of lights.
That an angel should be set over the world (meaning the whole universe) is not likely. That he should be set over ornaments (kosmetics) likewize. That he should be set over the world (meaning this world, as in NT) is perhaps a possibility, but he is never described that way in Enoch's writings - he is there set over the starry heavens, the constellations, the lights of heaven. As an archangel he was over other lower angels, guardians of individual stars.
Both M. Black and J. Milik seems to reqognize this, in their notes, but to my knowledge there is no translation yet that takes into consideration that the Greek translation was made during an era when the word kosmos had an astronomical meaning, as in LXX and other Greek writers.
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Ken M. Penner » September 1st, 2020, 8:13 am

Leif Strom wrote:
August 31st, 2020, 5:11 pm
I see the verses mentioned as referring to astronomical objects, stars, planets, and therefore interpret kosmos, in these cases, as meaning constellations, orders of stars, or lights.
... the word kosmos had an astronomical meaning, as in LXX and other Greek writers.
Where in LXX and other Greek writers do you see κόσμος with an astronomical meaning?
In these instances, is κόσμος in the plural ("constellationS", "orderS of starS", "lightS")?

Perhaps the following section of Brill's Dictionary is helpful:
BrillDAG wrote: extens., of various regions of the universe: ὁ ἐπιχθόνιος κ. the underworld CH exc. 23 | firmament, sky ISOCR. 4.179 ARISTOT. Meteor. 339a 20 etc.; τὰ κατὰ τὸν κόσμον the celestial bodies ARISTOT. Metaph. 1063a 15 ‖ astr. sphere, having as its radius the line joining the centre of the sun with that of the earth ARCHIM. Aren. 4, al. | sphere of the fixed stars PLAT. Epin. 987b etc.
This is based partially on LSJ:
LSJ wrote: sts. of the firmament, γῆς ἁπάσης τῆς ὑπὸ τῷ κόσμῳ κειμένης Isoc.4.179; ὁ περὶ τὴν γῆν ὅλος κ. Arist.Mete.339a20; μετελθεῖν εἰς τὸν ἀέναον κ., of death, OGI56.48 (Canopus, iii B.C.); but also, of earth, as opp. heaven, ὁ ἐπιχθόνιος κ. Herm.ap.Stob.1.49.44; or as opp. the underworld, ὁ ἄνω κ. Iamb.VP27.123; of any region of the universe, ὁ μετάρσιος κ. Herm.ap.Stob.1.49.44; of the sphere whose centre is the earth’s centre and radius the straight line joining earth and sun, Archim.Aren.4; of the sphere containing the fixed stars, Pl.Epin.987b: in pl., worlds, coexistent or successive, Anaximand. et al ii ap.Placit.2.1.3, cf. Epicur. l.c.; also, of stars, Νὺξ μεγάλων κ. κτεάτειρα A.Ag.356 (anap.), cf. Heraclid. et Pythagorei ap.Placit.2.13.15 (= Orph.Fr.22); οἱ ἑπτὰ κ. the Seven planets, Corp.Herm.11.7.
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Ken M. Penner
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Leif Strom
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Leif Strom » September 1st, 2020, 6:25 pm

... kosmos is spherical” (Aristotle, Cael. 2.5.287b15);

Are you saying that tou kosmou in Enoch 20:2 should be translated 'the sphere', 'the firmament' or something similar, ie the aramaic was 'rakia'?
It seems more likely to me that the aramaic was 'tzeva', host, or 'tzeva shamayim', and that the translator copied the use in lxx and wrote kosmou
I see a plural translation of the word kosmon in Brenton's LXX, Deut. 4:19 (same greek expression as in Isa. 24:21 where he translates it in singular), but I am not trying to find the literal meaning of gr. Enoch's 'tou kosmou', but what the greek translator was seeing before him when he used that word, what he was trying to say to his readers, and along with the rest of book of Enoch, I think he was seeing the constellations, or the zodiac, ie the order of the heavens, which Uriel was set over

Which aramaic word, or words, was the greek translator interpreting as tou kosmou? Or which word or words could be translated that way in ancient Greek?
ha rakia? ha tzeva? ha tzevaot? ha kesyil? ha eretz? ha shamayim?

"All the world which lies beneath the firmament being divided into two parts, the one called Asia, the other Europe," (Isocrates, 4:179) It doesn't seem to me that kosmos here have to be translated firmament.

This greek writer referred to kosmos in a way that the translator felt free to replace with a plural expression:
Of this kind are the heavenly bodies; for these do not appear to be now of one nature and subsequently of another, but are manifestly always the same and have no change of any kind.
τοιαῦτα δ᾽ ἐστὶ τὰ κατὰ τὸν κόσμον: ταῦτα γὰρ οὐχ ὁτὲ μὲν τοιαδὶ πάλιν δ᾽ ἀλλοῖα φαίνεται, ταὐτὰ δ᾽ ἀεὶ καὶ μεταβολῆς οὐδεμιᾶς κοινωνοῦντα.
(Aristotle, Metaphysics, book 11)
Heaven isn't even mentioned in Aristotle's reasoning, just kosmon.

Heavenly bodies isn't far from my suggestion constellations, apart from constellations have more of the original meaning of kosmos in it (order, pattern).
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Ken M. Penner » September 1st, 2020, 7:00 pm

Leif Strom wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:25 pm
Which aramaic word, or words, was the greek translator interpreting as tou kosmou? Or which word or words could be translated that way in ancient Greek?
ha rakia? ha tzeva? ha tzevaot? ha kesyil? ha eretz? ha shamayim?
The surviving portions of Aramaic Enoch have כון where the Greek has κόσμος/κόσμιος.
Leif Strom wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:25 pm
This greek writer referred to kosmos in a way that the translator felt free to replace with a plural expression:
Of this kind are the heavenly bodies; for these do not appear to be now of one nature and subsequently of another, but are manifestly always the same and have no change of any kind.
τοιαῦτα δ᾽ ἐστὶ τὰ κατὰ τὸν κόσμον: ταῦτα γὰρ οὐχ ὁτὲ μὲν τοιαδὶ πάλιν δ᾽ ἀλλοῖα φαίνεται, ταὐτὰ δ᾽ ἀεὶ καὶ μεταβολῆς οὐδεμιᾶς κοινωνοῦντα.
(Aristotle, Metaphysics, book 11)
The plural "heavenly bodies" is derived not from the singular κόσμον but from the plural article τὰ. The phrase κατὰ τὸν κόσμον corresponds to "heavenly", and τὰ corresponds to "the [bodies]" in this context.
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Leif Strom
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Re: Dating of the Greek book of Enoch

Post by Leif Strom » September 1st, 2020, 10:59 pm

I haven't been able to find the word κόσμιος in any of the greek Enoch texts that I have, nor on the net.
And I am not aware of any aramaic fragments of ch. 20:2-4.
J Milik has 8:1 in aramaic, but the word for ornaments is there between brackets.
Could you tell me where to find those examples you referred to?
The surviving portions of Aramaic Enoch have כון where the Greek has κόσμος/κόσμιος.
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