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Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 3rd, 2022, 2:28 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Honestly, I think that if the substantive were intended, we would have τὀ περισσόν. Much more likely to understand τἠν ζωήν or the pronoun αὐτήν from the previous clause and render περισσόν adverbially, "they may have it in abundance."

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 4th, 2022, 1:59 am
by Jean Putmans
"Mayser says περισσὸν functions as a noun here?"

Yes; Mayser here is showing the use of the articular Infinitive in egyptian papyri. In this case he states it is an epexegetical Expression, where the articular Infinitive (= του αντιλεγειν) is explicativ to a construction of verb + noun (παρεχει + περισσον), where the noun is explaining more the verb than the noun.

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Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 4th, 2022, 4:51 am
by Stephen Carlson
Jonathan Robie wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 2:25 pm
Jean Putmans wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 12:31 pm Mayser did research on the Greek Papyri in Egypt.
The text he quotes is a Letter of a Maron to a Zenon.
So he's looking at this:
Διόδωρος δὲ παρέχει περισσὸν τοῦ ἀντιλέγειν καθ᾽ ἐχάστην ἡμέραν
Mayser says περισσὸν functions as a noun here?
I don’t think so. He’s just saying that παρἐχει περισσόν gives the “same thought’ as the ἐνκὀμματα ποιεῖ in the corrected text, so their articular infinitives have the same function. He’s not parsing the expression παρἐχει περισσόν as a verb + substantive.

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 4th, 2022, 6:09 am
by Jean Putmans
You are right! But what else could περισσον in the Papyrus be but a noun, as I cannot find in Jacobitz/Montanari examples of παρεχει without an Accusative-Noun* ?

*(Except 1: as an absolute verb in the meaning: to withdraw, surrender, make room (Montanari [E]; and 2: with an Infinitiv, in the meaning: to give the opportunity [Montanari [B}, Jacobitz (3), with a Dative commodi)

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 4th, 2022, 10:38 am
by Jonathan Robie
Stephen Carlson wrote: January 4th, 2022, 4:51 am
Jonathan Robie wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 2:25 pm Mayser says περισσὸν functions as a noun here?
I don’t think so. He’s just saying that παρἐχει περισσόν gives the “same thought’ as the ἐνκὀμματα ποιεῖ in the corrected text, so their articular infinitives have the same function. He’s not parsing the expression παρἐχει περισσόν as a verb + substantive.
That's how I read it. Mayser gives ἐνκὀμματα ποιεῖ as an example of Substantive + Verb, then notes that παρἐχει περισσόν, a version that was subsequently deleted, expresses the same thought - and thus functions as a hint for how we should understand ἐνκὀμματα ποιεῖ.
Jean Putmans wrote: January 4th, 2022, 6:09 am You are right! But what else could περισσον in the Papyrus be but a noun, as I cannot find in Jacobitz/Montanari examples of παρεχει without an Accusative-Noun* ?
Why wouldn't it be an adverb, modifying the verb παρἐχει? And yes, you can express the same thought with a substantive and a verb, but that doesn't mean that περισσόν is a substantive here.

This reminds me a little of Matthew 5:47:

Matt 5:47 καὶ ἐὰν ἀσπάσησθε τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς ὑμῶν μόνον, τί περισσὸν ποιεῖτε; οὐχὶ καὶ οἱ ἐθνικοὶ τὸ αὐτὸ ποιοῦσιν;

I think περισσόν still functions as an adverb here, but translations often translate it without using an adverb. The same thought can be expressed with different parts of speech, either in Greek or in a translation.

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 4th, 2022, 12:57 pm
by Jean Putmans
" Why wouldn't it be an adverb, modifying the verb παρἐχει?"

What would παρεχω in that case mean?

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 5th, 2022, 9:47 pm
by dougknighton
Barry Hofstetter wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 2:28 pm Honestly, I think that if the substantive were intended, we would have τὀ περισσόν. Much more likely to understand τἠν ζωήν or the pronoun αὐτήν from the previous clause and render περισσόν adverbially, "they may have it in abundance."
Barry, if ζωὴν were preceded by an article as you suggest, I think I would agree with you (and I can’t find the pronoun you referenced in either of the preceding sentences).
Luke uses περισσόν without an article twice:
Luke 12:4 καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα μὴ ἐχόντων περισσότερόν τι ποιῆσαι. Here περισσόν (in its comparative form) seems to be the object of ἐχόντων. “And after this do not have ‘more actions’ to do.”
Luke 12:48 περισσότερον αἰτήσουσιν αὐτόν. Again in its comparative form περισσόν seems to function as an object. “They will ask/assign him (to do) ‘more things.’”
The rest of the NT and LXX substantive occurrences of περισσόν use the article.
However, the situation in John 10:10 is different in that there is a purpose clause that contains two instances of the same verb, and the first noun/verb phrase in the purpose clause is anarthous. Since it is, it seems reasonable to expect the second phrase to be anarthous as well. Contextually, construing ζωὴν and περισσὸν as substantives parallels the promise in verse 9 that those who enter through Jesus as the door “will be saved (= live ζωὴν) and will continually have access to pasture (= have more than enough περισσὸν).

Doug Knighton

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 6th, 2022, 4:58 am
by Vasile Stancu
Jonathan Robie wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 2:25 pm
Jean Putmans wrote: January 3rd, 2022, 12:31 pm
Διόδωρος δὲ παρέχει περισσὸν τοῦ ἀντιλέγειν καθ᾽ ἐχάστην ἡμέραν
Small typo: I suppose ἐχάστην should be spelled ἑκάστην (?)

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 6th, 2022, 4:59 am
by Vasile Stancu
I think it should be significant that the two substantives affected by this discussion (νομὴν and ζωὴν) are related to two different verbs: εὑρήσει and ἔχωσιν. If the second ἔχωσιν were intended to refer to νομὴν, wouldn't it be more reasonable to use the other verb instead, and put the phrase like περισσὸν εὑρίσκωσιν instead of περισσὸν ἔχωσιν? To have pasture (= food) abundantly (which may have the connotation of "excessively") should be less important than having life abundantly; this is why, I think, the text should be taken as emphasizing "life", rather than "pasture".

Re: John 10:10b understanding the clauses

Posted: January 6th, 2022, 8:42 am
by Barry Hofstetter
dougknighton wrote: January 5th, 2022, 9:47 pm
Barry, if ζωὴν were preceded by an article as you suggest, I think I would agree with you (and I can’t find the pronoun you referenced in either of the preceding sentences).
I fail to see what the presence or absence of the article has to do with it. And my apologies for not being clear, what I meant was the noun or a pronoun referring to the noun had to be supplied in the second clause. Really, neuter accusatives as adverbs and supplying something from context is so common in ancient Greek that no other explanation needs to be invented.
Luke uses περισσόν without an article twice:
Luke 12:4 καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα μὴ ἐχόντων περισσότερόν τι ποιῆσαι. Here περισσόν (in its comparative form) seems to be the object of ἐχόντων. “And after this do not have ‘more actions’ to do.”
No, actually. It's used adjectivally to modify τι.
Luke 12:48 περισσότερον αἰτήσουσιν αὐτόν. Again in its comparative form περισσόν seems to function as an object. “They will ask/assign him (to do) ‘more things.’”
Look how you translated that, "more things," but the text has περισότερον, not περισότερα. Admittedly the line here between substantive usage (and also πολύ) is blurred, but it's far from proof for your assertion at John 10:10.
The rest of the NT and LXX substantive occurrences of περισσόν use the article.
However, the situation in John 10:10 is different in that there is a purpose clause that contains two instances of the same verb, and the first noun/verb phrase in the purpose clause is anarthous. Since it is, it seems reasonable to expect the second phrase to be anarthous as well. Contextually, construing ζωὴν and περισσὸν as substantives parallels the promise in verse 9 that those who enter through Jesus as the door “will be saved (= live ζωὴν) and will continually have access to pasture (= have more than enough περισσὸν).
Your application is flawless, your analysis of the grammar not so much.