verb usage

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1826
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: verb usage

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 30th, 2014, 9:46 am

grogers wrote:Thanks a lot for your response. I only had a couple of years of Greek over 30 years ago and am certainly no scholar in the language but I just could not see any justification for this young man's treatment of the grammar. It looks to me like the syntax is very simple and uncpomplicated. He was attempting to separate the first clause into two separate clauses insisting that these two imperatives were directed to two separate groups and I simply could not get that out of that construction.
I wanted to point out that despite your 30 year hiatus, your instincts were exactly right. The young man's argument is a good example of someone who knows nothing about the way the language works, or one who is driven by a theological agenda, or both. I too hope this encourages you to return to the study of the language...
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

grogers
Posts: 43
Joined: February 7th, 2013, 6:43 pm

Re: verb usage

Post by grogers » December 30th, 2014, 12:03 pm

Thank you Barry. If I were to send you via email a copy of the argument he presented would you be willing to critique it for me if this is not out of order? If he is right in his argumentation (which I really doubt) I want to know and if he is not I want to know why he is not point by point.
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Glen Rogers

grogers
Posts: 43
Joined: February 7th, 2013, 6:43 pm

Re: verb usage

Post by grogers » January 2nd, 2015, 8:58 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
I wanted to point out that despite your 30 year hiatus, your instincts were exactly right. The young man's argument is a good example of someone who knows nothing about the way the language works, or one who is driven by a theological agenda, or both. I too hope this encourages you to return to the study of the language...
It has been suggested that και βαπτισθητω εκαστος υμων επι τω ονοματι ιησου χριστου should be understood as a parenthetical statement. Is this a possibility. Please explain why or why not.
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Glen Rogers

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: verb usage

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 2nd, 2015, 10:32 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Τhe same construction appears elsewhere, with a mix of 2nd and 3rd person imperatives, such as in 1Cor 16:1-2, or Joshua 4:5. There, as here, the group addressed is the same group.
Here is one in which the same persons is referred to in all three persons.
1 Corinthians 1:12 wrote:Λέγω δὲ τοῦτο, ὅτι ἕκαστος ὑμῶν λέγει, Ἐγὼ μέν εἰμι Παύλου, Ἐγὼ δὲ Ἀπολλώ, Ἐγὼ δὲ Κηφᾶ, Ἐγὼ δὲ Χριστοῦ.
This explanation by Funk my also be of some use to extend the boundary of "normal" usage.

Sidenote on style:
I realise it is beyond the scope of Glen's original question, but let me say that I believe that the formality / informality of this construction seems to be reversed in a direct translation. The phrases:
Each of you should put their luggage in their room, before coming down for dinner. OR
Each of you should put your luggage in your room, before coming down for dinner.
have a very formal soundingness to them in English compared to the direct:
Put your bags in your rooms, then come down to dinner.
but it seems that the construction that we have under discussion is used in informal (spoken) contexts in Greek.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

grogers
Posts: 43
Joined: February 7th, 2013, 6:43 pm

Re: verb usage

Post by grogers » January 19th, 2015, 9:52 am

Which rendering of 1Cor. 15:55 do you feel has the best textual support?
ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον; ποῦ σου, ᾅδη, τὸ νῖκος
OR
ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος; ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον
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Glen Rogers

cwconrad
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Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: verb usage

Post by cwconrad » January 19th, 2015, 10:39 am

grogers wrote:Which rendering of 1Cor. 15:55 do you feel has the best textual support?
ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον; ποῦ σου, ᾅδη, τὸ νῖκος
OR
ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος; ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον
Ordinarily we do not discuss text-critical questions of this sort, i.e. which variant is to be preferred; although we might discuss how some particular variant may or must be understood in terms of its Greek construction.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

grogers
Posts: 43
Joined: February 7th, 2013, 6:43 pm

Re: verb usage

Post by grogers » January 19th, 2015, 4:50 pm

Okay. thank you.
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Glen Rogers

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