ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
DanielBuck
Posts: 12
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 4:24 pm

ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by DanielBuck » June 24th, 2015, 5:05 pm

I'm puzzled by differing parsing information for what appears to be the same word in different texts of Matthew 23:37. How would it be that ὄρνις can be parsed as a masculine word in one text, and a feminine word in the other, when the spelling is exactly the same? Cutting and pasting the one into Perseus yields +o)/rnis, with an 8-line entry, whereas the other yields o)/rnis, with only a 4-line entry, but both show the same spelling o)/rnis as being either masculine and feminine.

The context here is obviously a female bird, so how would one determine that the word is masculine, as the laparola parsing function does? Could it have anything to do with the possessive pronoun, which is in either instance feminine?
0 x



Louis L Sorenson
Posts: 709
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 9:21 pm
Location: Burnsville, MN, USA
Contact:

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by Louis L Sorenson » June 24th, 2015, 7:51 pm

Without looking at the reference cited, here is my gut instinct:

ὁ βοῦς
ἡ βοῦς
ὁ γάμηλος
ἡ γάμηλος

See LSJ III.

ὄρνις, ιθος, ὁ and ἡ (Hom.+; pap; 3 Km 5:3 [Swete 4:23; s. Thackeray p. 152f]; SibOr 2, 208 [ὄρνεις]; Philo; Jos., Bell. 2, 289 [ὄρνεις], C. Ap. I, 203f [τὸν ὄρνιθα], Ant. 18, 185 [τὸν ὄρνιν]; Tat.) gener. ‘bird’, specif. ‘cock’ or ‘hen’ (Aeschyl.; X., An. 4, 5, 25; Polyb. 12, 26, 1 al.; TAM II/1, 245, 8; pap); in NT only fem. hen. The action of the mother bird or specif. of the hen as a symbol of protecting care Mt 23:37; Lk 13:34.—D’Arcy Thompson, A Glossary of Greek Birds ’36; AParmelee, All the Birds of the Bible ’69. B. 175. DELG. M-M.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 724). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


ὄρνις, ὁ, also ἡ Il.9.323, 14.290, al., freq. in Att., cf. III; gen. ὄρνῑθος; acc. sg. ὄρνῑθα and ὄρνιν, neither in Hom. (in Cret. written ὄνν[ι]θα, Inscr.Cret.4.41 iii 8 (Gortyn)): pl., nom. and acc. ὄρνῑθες, -θας, but also ὄρνεις or ὄρνῑς (S.OT966, E.Hipp.1059, Ar.Av.717, 1250, 1610, D.19.245, etc.); later also nom. pl. ὄρνις Luc.Ep.Sat.35: also ὄρνιξ, PCair.Zen.375.1 (iii B.C.), v.l. in Ev.Luc.13.34, called Ion. and Dor. by Phot. (but ὄρνις nom. in Alcm.26.4); acc. ὄρνῑχα Pi.O.2.88; gen. ὄρνῑχος Id.I.6(5).53: nom. pl. ὄρνῑχες B.5.22, Theoc.7.47; gen. pl. ὀρνίχων Alcm.67, Abh. Berl. Akad.1925(5).33 (Cyrene, iv B.C.); ὀρνίκων PTeb.875.19 (ii B.C.); dat. ὄρνιχι, ὀρνίξχεσσι, Pi.P.5.112, 4.190 (ὄρνιξι also in PLond.1.131r.125, al. (i A.D.)): on the gender and declens., v. Ath.9.373sq. (Cf. ὄρν-εον, Goth. ara, gen. arins ‘eagle’, etc.) [In the trisyll. cases ῑ always: Hom. has ὄρνῑς in Il.9.323, 12.218, but ὄρνῐς ib. 24.219; and later Ep. use both ὄρνῑς and ὄρνῐς: in Trag. both quantities are found, ὄρνῐς in A.Fr.304.3 (-ῐν), S.Ant.1021, El.149 (lyr.), Fr.654, E.HF72, and so Philem.79.10; but ὄρνῑς E.Ba.1365, and always in Ar. (Av.103, al.), for in ib. 168, the words τίς ὄρνῐς οὗτος; are borrowed from Sophocles; ὄρνῑς is said to be Att. EM632.8.]
I. bird, including birds of prey and domestic fowls, Hom., etc.; applied to ostriches, X.An.1.2.7: freq. added to the specific names, ὄρνισιν ἐοικότες αἰγυπιοῖσιν Il.7.59; λάρῳ ὄρνιθι ἐοικοώς Od.5.51; ὄ. ἀηδών, πέρδιξ, S.Aj.629, Fr.323; ὄ. ἁλκυών, ὄ. κύκνος, E.IT1089 (lyr.), Hel.19.
II. like οἰωνός, bird of omen, from the flight or cries of which the augur divined, Hes.Op.828; δεξιός, ἀριστερὸς ὄρνις, Il.13.821, Od.20.242, al.; χρηστηρίους ὄρνιθας A.Th.26, cf. Ag.112, 157 (both lyr.); ὄ. αἴσιος S.OT52, cf. Plu.Fab.19, Gal.12.314; ὀρνίθων οἰωνίσματα E.Ph.839.
2. metaph., omen taken from the flight or cries of birds, Il.10.277, al.: generally, omen, presage, without direct reference to birds, 24.219, Pi.P.4.19; ὄρνιθα δʼ οὐ ποιω σε τῆς ἐμῆς A.Fr.95, cf. E.IA988, Ar.Pl.63, Av.719 sqq.; v. ὅδιος, (Ar.)Av.719 sqq. ὄρνιθος οὕνεκα Ar.fr.78c.54 R.
III. in Att. ὄρνις, ὁ, is mostly, cock, S.El.18; κοκκυβόας ὄ. Id.Fr.791, cf. Ar.V.815; ὄρνις, ἡ, hen, Men.167, 168, PCair.Zen.266 (iii B.C., pl.); ἀλέκτορα καὶ ὄρνιθα τελέαν cock and hen, TAM2(1).245.8 (Lycia); in full, ὄ. ἐνοίκιος A.Eu.866; οήλεια ὄ. S.Fr.477; πότερον ὄ. ἢ ταὧς; Ar.Av.102 (with play on this signf. and signf. 1); ὁ ὄρνιξ ὁ σιτευτός fatted fowl, PCair.Zen.375.1; ὀρνίθων φοινικολόφων Theoc.22.72, cf. 24.64, Mosch.3.49; ὄ. οἰκίης Babr.17.1; also, goose, Id.123.1.
IV. in pl. sts. bird-market, D.19.245; cf. ὄρνεον II.
V. Μοισᾶν ὄρνιχες song-birds, i.e. poets, Theoc.7.47.
VI. Provs.: διώκει παῖς ποτανὸν ὄρνιν A.Ag.394 (lyr.); ὄ. ὥς τις ἐκ χερῶν ἄφαντος E.Hipp.828; ὀρνίθων γάλα ‘pigeon’s milk’, i.e. any marvellous dainty or good fortune, Ar.V.508, Av.1673, Mnesim.9, Men.936; but ὄρνιθος γάλα white of egg, Anaxag.22; also a plant, v. ὀρνιθόγαλον.
VII. a constellation, later Cygnus, Eudox.ap.Hipparch.1.2.16, Arat.275, Ptol.Tetr.26.


Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1254). Oxford: Clarendon Press.
0 x

cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by cwconrad » June 25th, 2015, 5:44 am

Louis L Sorenson wrote:Without looking at the reference cited, here is my gut instinct:

ὁ βοῦς
ἡ βοῦς
ὁ γάμηλος
ἡ γάμηλος

See LSJ III.

ὄρνις, ιθος, ὁ and ἡ ...
I suspect that ὁ κάμηλος/ἡ κάμηλος was intended for the second example.
One might add another not so uncommon pair: ὁ ἁνθρωπος/ἡ ἄνθρωπος.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1873
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 25th, 2015, 6:33 am

As pointed out, the word can be either masculine for feminine, and it's context that lets you know for sure (in this case not only conceptual context but also that the word takes the feminine pronoun). Greek has that ability to turn nouns into the feminine simply be changing the article, but the usage is rare in Koine Greek.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις and gender "anomalies" that aren't

Post by cwconrad » June 25th, 2015, 8:51 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:As pointed out, the word can be either masculine for feminine, and it's context that lets you know for sure (in this case not only conceptual context but also that the word takes the feminine pronoun). Greek has that ability to turn nouns into the feminine simply by changing the article, but the usage is rare in Koine Greek.
The whole matter of gender of nouns is considerably more complex than beginners who start out with first-declension feminine nouns and second-declension masculine and neuter nouns are coddled into thinking by the pedagogue's practice of introducing the less-complicated items first.* One has to learn the first-declension masculines -- and then one has to learn the first-declension nouns that retain the α-stem -- and then the short-α nouns that have -ης and -ῃ in the gen. and dat. sg.. I think that it's wise for instructors to underscore a note of caution at an early point: -ος is not fundamentally a masculine nominal ending but a generic one; many an adjective of the 1st and 2nd declensions has only two terminations: -ος for m. & f., -ον for n. We've noted that several nouns for critters -- birds, bovines, people -- can be either masculine or feminine. Trees and plants are quite often second-declension feminine -ος nouns. And then, of course, there are the common nouns like ἡ ὁδός and ἡ νῆσος and ἡ νόσος. It is somewhat dangerous to let beginners suppose that the rules are really very simple and free from any significant exceptions. Although the really tough nut for all studens to crack in Greek is the verb, the noun is not quite the pushover that it seems in the first couple of weeks.

* One of the better traditional Latin primers (Moreland and Fleischer, Latin: An Intensive Course) flaunts the tradition of putting off the regularly-used subjunctive until late in the game of grammatical introductions. If ordinary phrasings require what's more complex, then postponing the complex items is self-defeating.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

DanielBuck
Posts: 12
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 4:24 pm

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by DanielBuck » June 26th, 2015, 10:57 am

Thanks for the input. I'm coming to the conclusion that my source erred, for whatever reason, in assigning a masculine gender and a feminine gender, respectively, to two identical uses of the same word.. At any rate, now my interest is piqued. In what context would ἡ ἄνθρωπος be used, and how would it translate into English?
0 x

Andrew Chapman
Posts: 260
Joined: February 5th, 2013, 5:04 am
Location: Oxford, England
Contact:

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by Andrew Chapman » June 26th, 2015, 12:47 pm

With regard to ἠ ἄνθρωπος, BDAG gives a reference to Herodotus 1.60.5. A bit of context is necessary to get the idea (translation at Perseus):

ἐν τῷ δήμῳ τῷ Παιανιέι ἦν γυνὴ τῇ οὔνομα ἦν Φύη, μέγαθος ἀπὸ τεσσέρων πηχέων ἀπολείπουσα τρεῖς δακτύλους καὶ ἄλλως εὐειδής: ταύτην τὴν γυναῖκα σκευάσαντες πανοπλίῃ, ἐς ἅρμα ἐσβιβάσαντες καὶ προδέξαντες σχῆμα οἷόν τι ἔμελλε εὐπρεπέστατον φανέεσθαι ἔχουσα, ἤλαυνον ἐς τὸ ἄστυ, προδρόμους κήρυκας προπέμψαντες: οἳ τὰ ἐντεταλμένα ἠγόρευον ἀπικόμενοι ἐς τὸ ἄστυ, λέγοντες τοιάδε: ‘ὦ Ἀθηναῖοι, δέκεσθε ἀγαθῷ νόῳ Πεισίστρατον, τὸν αὐτὴ ἡ Ἀηθναίη τιμήσασα ἀνθρώπων μάλιστα κατάγει ἐς τὴν ἑωυτῆς ἀκρόπολιν.’ οἳ μὲν δὴ ταῦτα διαφοιτέοντες ἔλεγον: αὐτίκα δὲ ἔς τε τοὺς δήμους φάτις ἀπίκετο ὡς Ἀθηναίη Πεισίστρατον κατάγει, καὶ οἱ ἐν τῷ ἄστεϊ πειθόμενοι τὴν γυναῖκα εἶναι αὐτὴν τὴν θεὸν προσεύχοντό τε τὴν ἄνθρωπον καὶ ἐδέκοντο Πεισίστρατον.

which nicely also gives an instance of ἡ θέος, with which ἡ ἄνθρωπος is being contrasted - believing Phya to be a god, they were praying to her, a mere human, I think is the idea.

In passing, I am struck by the use of the article as a relative: τὸν αὐτὴ ἡ Ἀηθναίη τιμήσασα. Is this normal in Herodotus?

Andrew
0 x

cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις -- more on ἡ ἄνθρωπος

Post by cwconrad » June 26th, 2015, 1:27 pm

I thought I had posted a response on this matter earlier, but it was evidently erased or lost, as happens too frequently with this software. At any rate, I have found the text that I was looking for in a speech attributed to Demosthenes but thought to be a work of Apollodorus. It's a forensic speech, and I think the snippet is sufficient to make clear how the noun ἡ ἄνθρωπος is being used:
Demosthenes 47. Κατᾶ Εὐεργου καῖ Μνσιούλου ψευδομαρτυριῶν, §35 wrote:… πυθόμενος οὗ ᾤκει ὁ Θεόφημος, λαβὼν παρὰ τῆς ἀρχῆς ὑπηρέτην ἦλθον ἐπὶ τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ Θεοφήμου. καταλαβὼν δὲ αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔνδον ὄντα, ἐκέλευσα τὴν ἄνθρωπον τὴν ὑπακούσασαν μετελθεῖν αὐτὸν ὅπου εἴη …
My version of the snippet: “When I found out where Theophemus was living, I took a public slave from the governing authority and went to Theophemus’ house. When I found that he wasn’t in, I bade the woman who answered (the door) to go get him, wherever he might be …”
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 26th, 2015, 3:05 pm

cwconrad wrote:The whole matter of gender of nouns is considerably more complex than beginners ... are coddled into thinking
Louis L Sorenson wrote:ὄρνις, ιθος, ὁ and ἡ (Hom.+; pap; 3 Km 5:3 [Swete 4:23; s. Thackeray p. 152f]; SibOr 2, 208 [ὄρνεις]; Philo; Jos., Bell. 2, 289 [ὄρνεις], C. Ap. I, 203f [τὸν ὄρνιθα], Ant. 18, 185 [τὸν ὄρνιν]; Tat.) gener. ‘bird’, specif. ‘cock’ or ‘hen’ (Aeschyl.; X., An. 4, 5, 25; Polyb. 12, 26, 1 al.; TAM II/1, 245, 8; pap); in NT only fem. hen. The action of the mother bird or specif. of the hen as a symbol of protecting care Mt 23:37; Lk 13:34.—D’Arcy Thompson, A Glossary of Greek Birds ’36; AParmelee, All the Birds of the Bible ’69. B. 175. DELG. M-M.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 724). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Probably making a pair of ὁ ἀλέκτωρ (-ορος) and ἡ ὄρνις (-ιθος) along with 2.4 τὰ νοσσία buckled into the back seat would make a better basis for the coddling of beginners than declensional similarities do.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Shirley Rollinson
Posts: 352
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: ὄρνις vs ὄρνις

Post by Shirley Rollinson » June 26th, 2015, 5:53 pm

DanielBuck wrote: - - - In what context would ἡ ἄνθρωπος be used, and how would it translate into English?
the person ?
or if you want to show that the original is feminine, the gal
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Grammar Questions”