Partitive Trouble

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WAnderson
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Partitive Trouble

Post by WAnderson » May 8th, 2017, 7:27 pm

Studying genitives, specifically partitives, in my on-again off-again torturous journey through Revelation (but I've learned a lot doing it). So I came across a passage I've had trouble with before, but for a different reason this time.

Simple definition of partitive genitive: The head substantive in the phrase represents a "part" of some whole, which is described by the genitive.

So here's the passage, from Rev. 17:11

καὶ τὸ θηρίον ὃ ἦν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν, καὶ αὐτὸς ὄγδοός ἐστιν καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἑπτά ἐστιν

"And the beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is of the seven"

The question is: if ἐκ τῶν ἑπτά represents the "whole," what is the head substantive here that represents the "part" of the whole? For some reason the relationships are giving me trouble.
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MAubrey
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Re: Partitive Trouble

Post by MAubrey » May 8th, 2017, 9:27 pm

The definition that you're using only applies to genitives that modify substantives. It doesn't cover genitive objects of prepositions. Both ἐκ and ἀπό can be used to express partitive relationships, but most often the genitive is the whole and the part is the substantive that is "from" (ἐκ/ἀπό) the whole.
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WAnderson
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Re: Partitive Trouble

Post by WAnderson » May 8th, 2017, 11:05 pm

Thanks, I guess that explains why I was having trouble with it. So, just to be clear, τῶν ἑπτά represents the "whole," and in this instance ἐκ is the "part"? Would this explain why some versions translate it "one of the seven," in order to supply a head noun for what ἐκ implies?
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Partitive Trouble

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 9th, 2017, 2:20 pm

Rev. 17:11 καὶ τὸ θηρίον ὃ ἦν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν καὶ αὐτὸς ὄγδοός ἐστιν καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἑπτά ἐστιν, καὶ εἰς ἀπώλειαν ὑπάγει.

D. Aune (Rev. WBC, v.3, p911, note 11.d-d) “The phrase ἐκ τῶν ἑπτά ἐστιν is a partitive gen. in which the predicate nom. εἷς (in apposition to ὄγδοός) is understood, ‘one of the seven’ ...”.

R.H. Charles (Rev. ICC, v1, p139) notes that εἷς ἐκ is a “Johannine” idiom.

John 1:40, John 6:8, John 6:71, John 12:4, John 13:21, John 13:23, John 18:26, John 20:24, Rev. 5:5, Rev. 6:1, Rev. 7:13, Rev. 9:13, Rev. 13:3, Rev. 15:7, Rev. 17:1, Rev. 21:9
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Partitive Trouble

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 9th, 2017, 5:05 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
May 9th, 2017, 2:20 pm
R.H. Charles (Rev. ICC, v1, p139) notes that εἷς ἐκ is a “Johannine” idiom.

John 1:40, John 6:8, John 6:71, John 12:4, John 13:21, John 13:23, John 18:26, John 20:24, Rev. 5:5, Rev. 6:1, Rev. 7:13, Rev. 9:13, Rev. 13:3, Rev. 15:7, Rev. 17:1, Rev. 21:9
Hmmm, the language of the Revelation often has little in common with the language of the Epistles of John and the Gospel of John. Here's the quote that Stirling just referenced:
Screen Shot 2017-05-09 at 5.08.48 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-05-09 at 5.08.48 PM.png (80.74 KiB) Viewed 836 times

Interesting that this is used mainly in these two places - the Gospel and the Revelation, but not the Epistles.

Also used in Mark 9:17:
Mark 9:17 wrote:καὶ ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ εἷς ἐκ τοῦ ὄχλου Διδάσκαλε, ἤνεγκα τὸν υἱόν μου πρὸς σέ, ἔχοντα πνεῦμα ἄλαλον·
And two places in Matthew:
Matthew 20:21 wrote:ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῇ· Τί θέλεις; λέγει αὐτῷ· Εἰπὲ ἵνα καθίσωσιν οὗτοι οἱ δύο υἱοί μου εἷς ἐκ δεξιῶν σου καὶ εἷς ἐξ εὐωνύμων σου ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου.
Matthew 27:38 wrote:Τότε σταυροῦνται σὺν αὐτῷ δύο λῃσταί, εἷς ἐκ δεξιῶν καὶ εἷς ἐξ εὐωνύμων.
And in various places in the Septuagint:
Exodus 25:18 wrote:ποιηθήσονται Χεροὺβ εἷς ἐκ τοῦ κλίτους τούτου καὶ Χεροὺβ εἷς ἐκ τοῦ κλίτους τοῦ δευτέρου τοῦ ἱλαστηρίου· καὶ ποιήσεις τοὺς δύο Χερουβὶμ ἐπὶ τὰ δύο κλίτη.
1 Kings 14:28 wrote:καὶ ἀπεκρίθη εἷς ἐκ τοῦ λαοῦ καὶ εἶπεν· ὁρκίσας ὥρκισε τὸν λαὸν ὁ πατήρ σου λέγων· ἐπικατάρατος ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ὃς φάγεται ἄρτον σήμερον, καὶ ἐξελύθη ὁ λαός.
3 Kings 21:35 wrote:Καὶ ἄνθρωπος εἷς ἐκ τῶν υἱῶν τῶν προφητῶν εἶπε πρὸς τὸν πλησίον αὐτοῦ ἐν λόγῳ Κυρίου· πάταξον δή με· καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησεν ὁ ἄνθρωπος πατάξαι αὐτόν.
Tobit 2:3 wrote:καὶ ἐλθὼν εἶπε· πάτερ, εἷς ἐκ τοῦ γένους ἡμῶν ἐστραγγαλωμένος ἔρριπται ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ.
So I wouldn't call this exclusively Johannine.
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