Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
WStroupe
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Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

Why does LXX employ synteleia to translate the Hebrew qets (Strong’s #7093) when synteleia is a complex consummation and qets is a merely a simple end?

One example is Daniel 11:35, but there are many others. This seems like an error to me - I can't find anything in the Hebrew grammar to justify going from a simple end to a complex consummation in the Greek.
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Jonathan Robie »

WStroupe wrote: July 8th, 2022, 7:20 pm Why does LXX employ synteleia to translate the Hebrew qets (Strong’s #7093) when synteleia is a complex consummation and qets is a merely a simple end?

One example is Daniel 11:35, but there are many others. This seems like an error to me - I can't find anything in the Hebrew grammar to justify going from a simple end to a complex consummation in the Greek.
Could you please quote texts in the original languages when you ask questions like this? Here are the Hebrew and Greek for Daniel 11:35, using the UBS texts:
וּמִן־הַמַּשְׂכִּילִ֣ים יִכָּֽשְׁל֗וּ לִצְר֥וֹף בָּהֶ֛ם וּלְבָרֵ֥ר וְלַלְבֵּ֖ן עַד־עֵ֣ת קֵ֑ץ כִּי־ע֖וֹד לַמּוֹעֵֽד׃
καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν συνιέντων ἀσθενήσουσιν τοῦ πυρῶσαι αὐτοὺς καὶ τοῦ ἐκλέξασθαι καὶ τοῦ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι, ἕως καιροῦ πέρας· ὅτι ἔτι εἰς καιρόν.
I think there are some differences in what these mean - the Septuagint is not always a translation of the same Hebrew text we have in most Bibles, and there is more than one Septuagint text for this verse - but let's focus on the word pair you asked about. The word קֵץ occurs in the phrase עַד־עֵ֣ת קֵ֑ץ (until the time of the end) and the equivalent is ἕως καιροῦ πέρας.

Let's look at the word πέρας in Lust, Eynikel, and Hauspie:
πέρας (-ατος) + N3N 0-0-18-31-11-60 Jeremiah 18:7,9; 28:13; Ezekiel 7:2,2 [5] limit, end, boundary Est 3,13b; end, conclusion, perfection 1 Ezr 9,17 πέρας λαλήσω at last or finally I shall speak Jer 18,7, see also 18,9; πῶς ἂν ἀχθείη τοῦτο ἐπὶ πέρας; how should this be brought to an end? Est 3,13c, see περαίνω *Zph 3,10 ἐκ περάτων ποταμῶν from the remotest reaches of the rivers corr.? πέραν τῶν ποταμῶν for MT ‎‏מעבר לנהרי‎ from beyond the rivers; *Ps 7,7 ἐν τοῖς πέρασι to the boundaries -‎‏בעברי‎? for MT ‎‏בעברות‎ in rage (of the Lord against the enemy) Cf. Walters 1973, 70-71.292
Or were you using a Septuagint based on the Old Greek?
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WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

Here is a link the site and content where I used the LXX: https://biblehub.com/sepd/daniel/11.htm

It does employ συντελείας· rather than πέρας

Using πέρας here makes total sense to me. I was not aware that there were newer versions of the LXX - were these created to make corrections to the old (original) LXX, such as in this case at Dan. 11:35? I would like to learn more about these other LXX translations.

Thanks so much for your insights!

William
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
S Walch
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by S Walch »

The Logos LXX has a different Septuagint text for Dan 11:35 to the one you've posted there, Jonathan (which coincides with Swete's LXX edition):

καὶ ἐκ τῶν συνιέντων διανοηθήσονται εἰς τὸ καθαρίσαι ἑαυτοὺς καὶ εἰς τὸ ἐκλεγῆναι καὶ εἰς τὸ καθαρισθῆναι ἕως καιροῦ συντελείας, ἔτι γὰρ καιρὸς εἰς ὥρας.

From whence I'm presuming this question geminates. (Swete's Alternative texts has the Greek version as you have quoted.)

συντέλεια is used several times to translate the Hebrew קֵץ in Daniel (Dan 8:19; 9:26; 11:6, 13, 27, 35, 40, 45; 12:4, 6, 13). Evidently the Greek translator understood קֵץ to indicate the completion/conclusion of something, which isn't out of the ordinary for a word meaning the end of something. Seems to be used most frequently with καιρός (Dan 8:19; 9:26; 11:13, 27, 35; 12:4), and the rest of the verses above it is used with another word indicating a period of time (ὥρα, ἡμέρα, ἐνιαυτός etc.), so I'll go with this being a set way of indicating the end of a period of time.

"Complex consummation" συντέλεια may originally have been, but as languages develop, words take on changed meanings, to which by the first century CE it has become a simple word meaning "end" (see Matt 13:39, 4-, 49; 24:3; 28:20; Heb 9:26). See no reason why this isn't also the case in Daniel.
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Jonathan Robie »

WStroupe wrote: July 9th, 2022, 11:50 am Using πέρας here makes total sense to me. I was not aware that there were newer versions of the LXX - were these created to make corrections to the old (original) LXX, such as in this case at Dan. 11:35? I would like to learn more about these other LXX translations.
This book is really worth reading:

When God Spoke Greek: The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible

It will teach you a lot about the history of both the Hebrew text and the Greek text. And it's a fun and entertaining read.
The Septuagint, the name given to the translation of the Hebrew scriptures between the third century BC and the second century AD, played a central role in the Bible's history. Many of the Hebrew scriptures were still evolving when they were translated into Greek, and these Greek translations, along with several new Greek writings, became Holy Scripture in the early Church.

Yet, gradually the Septuagint lost its place at the heart of Western Christianity. At the end of the fourth century, one of antiquity's brightest minds rejected the Septuagint in favor of the Bible of the rabbis. After Jerome, the Septuagint never regained the position it once had. Timothy Michael Law recounts the story of the Septuagint's origins, its relationship to the Hebrew Bible, and the adoption and abandonment of the first Christian Old Testament.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Jonathan Robie »

WStroupe wrote: July 9th, 2022, 11:50 am Here is a link the site and content where I used the LXX: https://biblehub.com/sepd/daniel/11.htm

It does employ συντελείας· rather than πέρας
Thanks - next time, could you please quote the verse, in both Hebrew and Greek if you want us to compare, together with a link to your source?

For instance:

Daniel 11:35
καὶ ἐκ τῶν συνιέντων διανοηθήσονται εἰς τὸ καθαρίσαι ἑαυτοὺς καὶ εἰς τὸ ἐκλεγῆναι καὶ εἰς τὸ καθαρισθῆναι ἕως καιροῦ συντελείας· ἔτι γὰρ καιρὸς εἰς ὥρας.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by Jonathan Robie »

S Walch wrote: July 9th, 2022, 12:07 pm The Logos LXX has a different Septuagint text for Dan 11:35 to the one you've posted there, Jonathan (which coincides with Swete's LXX edition):
Thanks!
S Walch wrote: July 9th, 2022, 12:07 pm "Complex consummation" συντέλεια may originally have been, but as languages develop, words take on changed meanings, to which by the first century CE it has become a simple word meaning "end" (see Matt 13:39, 4-, 49; 24:3; 28:20; Heb 9:26). See no reason why this isn't also the case in Daniel.
Indeed. Here's Louw & Nida (with some translation notes snipped out):
67.66 τέλοςa, ους n; συντέλεια, ας f: a point of time marking the end of a duration—‘end.’
τέλοςa: κηρυχθήσεται τοῦτο τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς βασιλείας … πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, καὶ τότε ἥξει τὸ τέλος ‘this good news about the kingdom will be preached … to all mankind, and then the end will come’ Mt 24:14; ἔφθασεν δὲ ἐπ’ αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τἐλος ‘and in the end wrath has come down on them’ or ‘and wrath has at last come down on them’ 1 Th 2:16.
!!! SNIP !!!

συντέλεια: οὕτως ἔσται ἐν τῇ συντελείᾳ τοῦ αἰῶνος ‘so it will be at the end of the age’ Mt 13:40.
!!! SNIP !!!

Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 637.
Here's BrillDAG:
συντέλεια -ας, ἡ συντελής fulfillment, conclusion POL. 1.3.3, al. etc.; εἰς συντέλειαν ἐλθεῖν to reach fulfillment POL. 2.40.6; ἡ σ. τοῦ πολέμου the conclusion of the war I OGIS 327.6 (IIBCE) ‖ end, completion, of time VT Deut. 11:12 NT Matt. 13:39 etc. ‖ gramm. completed action DEM.2 214 AP.7 Synt. 205.14 etc. ‖ philos. reality OC. 130.21 (cf. ἐντελέχεια).

Franco Montanari, ed. Madeleine Goh and Chad Schroeder, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden; Boston: Brill, 2015).
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

I would say that some pretty respectable references insist that συντέλεια is NOT a simple end:
Cognate: 4930 syntéleia (from 4862 /sýn, "close together with" and 5055 /teléō, "complete, consummate") – culmination (completion), i.e. when the parts come together into a whole ("consummation") – "an end involving many parts" (B. F. Westcott).
("culminating end, finish") is not strictly "termination" but rather "consummation" (completion) that ushers in a new time-era/age (Mt 13:39,40,49,24:3, 28:20).
[The KJV is misleading by rendering 4930 (syntéleia) as "the end of the world" (i.e. when it occurs with aiōn, "age/epoch"). This expression actually means "at the "consummation of the age," i.e. when it reaches its intended climax (consummated conclusion).]
From W.E. Vines:
(syntéleia) signifies "a bringing to completion together" (sun "with," teleo, "to complete," akin to No. 1), marking the "completion" or consummation of the various parts of a scheme. In Mat 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3; 28:20, the rendering "the end of the world" (AV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax.
At Matt. 24:3, 14 Jesus himself used both συντελείας in verse 3 and then he followed up with τέλος in verse 14 - I am NOT delving into doctrine here, but I merely want to make the point that Jesus must have seen a distinct difference between συντελείας and τέλος because he made a point to follow up συντελείας with τέλος, thereby showing a difference between a consummation of the age (verse 3) and the actual forced end of the world (verse 14).

συντελείας , being a complex consummation of many parts together rather than a simple end, appears to occur over an extended period of time, while in contrast, τέλος, being a simple end, occurs in a much shorter period of time.

Please note his use of the two terms here:
Latter part of Matt. 24:3: ... σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος
Latter part of Matt. 24:14: ... καὶ τότε ἥξει τὸ τέλος
Since συντελείας does NOT actually denote an end, as the references I provided above explain, Jesus needed to follow up with τέλος which is a simple end.

Does this not demonstrate by actual usage the difference in meaning between συντελείας and τέλος ?

Admittedly, some Bible translations don't adequately make these distinctions, but that should not be our gold standard - our gold standard should be those translations and scholars who do make such important distinctions, I think.

The Greek language has many words to convey important different shades of meaning for English words such as "world" and "end" - that's one of the most fascinating and praiseworthy things I can think of about the Greek. Should we not pay heed?
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
S Walch
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by S Walch »

From BDAG:
συντέλεια, ας, (orig. ‘community contribution’ [the basic semantic component relates to someth. that complements someth. already present]; in various senses Pla., Demosth. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; En 106:18; TestSol; TestJob 4:6; Test12Patr; ApcEsdr 2:31 p. 26, 25 Tdf.; Aristobul., in Eus., PE 8, 10, 9[=Denis p. 219 ln. 11f; Holladay Fgm. 2, 55 p. 138]; Jos., Ant. 15, 389; 20, 262; Tat.; Ath., R. 12 p. 61, 31 ‘increment’; Theoph. Ant. 2, 31 [p. 176, 14] ‘posterity’) in our lit. only in a temporal sense: a point of time marking completion of a duration, completion, close, end (Polyb. 1, 3, 3; 1, 4, 3 al.; SIG 695, 13 [II b.c.]; POxy 1270, 42 [II a.d.] σ‌. τοῦ ἔτους; LXX; Iren. 1, 6, 1 [Harv. I 53, 2]) συντέλεια (τοῦ) αἰῶνος the end of the (present; αἰών 2a) age (TestBenj 11:3; TestJob 4:6) Mt 13:39f, 49; 24:3; 28:20. τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου of this age 13:40 v.l., 49 v.l. τῶν αἰώνων of the ages (TestLevi 10:2; Did., Gen. 115, 19. Cp. in gnostic speculation σ‌. καὶ ἐκπύρωσις τοῦ παντός Hippol., Ref. 9, 30, 8) Hb 9:26. τῶν καιρῶν (Da 9:27) Hv 3, 8, 9. τοῦ κόσμου Mt 13:49 D. ἐπʼ ἐσχάτων τῶν ἡμερῶν τῆς συντελείας in the last days of the consummation (of the age) Hs 9, 12, 3 (cp. TestZeb 9:9 καιρὸς συντελείας; ApcEsdr 2:31 τὴν ἡμέραν τῆς συντελείας; cp. ViJer 13).—DELG s.v. τέλος. M-M. TW.
From TDNT as it pertains to its usage in Daniel:
3. As an apocalyptic tt. συντέλεια is common in Da. LXX for קֵץ to denote the “end,” so καιρὸς συντελείας for עֵח קֵץ at 11:35; 12:4 (also Θ), and with no corresponding HT 12:7; ὥρα συντελείας 11:40 (but ὥρα καιροῦ 8:17), while Θ prefers καιροῦ πέρας 8:17; 11:35, 40; 12:9. Da. LXX also uses συντέλεια for קֵץ the eschatological “end” at 8:19, cf. too 11:27; 12:6 (in all these Θ πέρας) and 12:13a (Θ the same); συντέλεια ἡμερῶν is the transl. of קֵץ הַיָמִין at 12:13b (also Θ). συντέλεια for “end” in a more gen. sense occurs for קֵץ at 9:26 (twice); 11:6, 13, 45;6 συντέλεια καιρῶν with no HT 9:27. The noun is always an apocal. tt. in Test. XII Zeb. 9:9 ref. to rejection ἕως καιροῦ συντελείας → line 35 f.); B. 11:3: ἕως συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος. Levi is not guilty of the transgression of the temple cultus by his sons ἐπὶ τῆ συντελείᾳ τῶν αἰώνων, i.e., at the time of the author, L. 10:2, cf. R. 6:8. συντέλεια corresponds to קֵץ, but sometimes in the transl. the idea of completion in the sense of eschatological fulfilment may be stronger; in Judaism the “end” is the conclusion and related events.
"Eschatological end" fits the usage in Matthew as well - but again, even a simple "end" is understood for its usage in Daniel 9:26.

Furthermore, as neither I nor Jonathan appealed to any English translation, bringing them up is a bit of a red-herring. However as you have done so, I would also like to point out it isn't just some English translations which translate συντελείας and τέλος by the same word:

Matt 24:3:
Y sentándose él en el monte de las Olivas, se llegaron á él los discípulos aparte, diciendo: Dinos, ¿cuándo serán estas cosas, y qué señal habrá de tu venida, y del fin del mundo? (Spanish Bible Reina–Valera)

Sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti, accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto, dicentes: Dic nobis, quando hæc erunt? et quod signum adventus tui, et consummationis sæculi? (Clementine Vulgate)

Matt 24:14:
Y será predicado este evangelio del reino en todo el mundo, por testimonio á todos los Gentiles; y entonces vendrá el fin. (Spanish Bible Reina–Valera)

Et prædicabitur hoc Evangelium regni in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus: et tunc veniet consummatio. (Clementine Vulgate)

Two non-English translations which translate the two words using the same word in the target language. This is why it's best not to bring up translations :)

This reeks very much like the ἀγαπάω / φιλέω debate of John 21. There really is no hidden meaning between the usage of two different words to mean the same thing.
WStroupe
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Re: Septuagint translation of Daniel 11:35

Post by WStroupe »

Ok - bringing up English translations is mostly irrelevant, I agree. But I only brought that up in passing, not in order to make any of my points about the fundamental difference between συντέλεια and τέλος - for those points I used the Greek itself. Anyway, this actually gets off the track a bit as far as my original question is concerned.

I think I have the answer I was looking for - that the LXX translation I was using seemed to place συντέλεια as the equivalent of the Hebrew קֵץ - a simple end. This is essentially incorrect because there is nothing in the grammar or context of Daniel 11:35 to justify that translation. Using πέρας instead of συντέλεια is significantly better because קֵץ and πέρας both denote a simple end.

Now, this may seem to some as splitting hairs, but these Greek words used to translate the Hebrew have distinct meanings and I wanted to see proof, in the form of some other version of the LXX or else in the form of an expert opinion, that using πέρας instead of συντέλεια is more correct.

I dug out an LXX from my book case that does use πέρας at Daniel 11:35: "The Septuagint Version: Greek and English, by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, 1970"
William J. Stroupe

"God's Word is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12
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