Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 18th, 2017, 9:38 am

MAubrey wrote:One of the problems with Devine & Stephens is that they do little to account for the enclitic verbs like ἐστιν, nor did I account for the issue myself at the time. Clauses with enclitics are of a different type than other discontinuous structures.
Is this an issue only with enclitic verbs, or can it arise with other enclitics as well?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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RandallButh
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by RandallButh » January 18th, 2017, 12:07 pm

This occurs with other enclitics as well.

One of the names for this in linguistics is LIPOC "language independent preferred order of constituents" where some kinds of "light" words are attracted to nuclear slots in the template (like pronouns before verbs in romance languages).
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 18th, 2017, 10:48 pm

OK, so a prepositional phrase or noun phrase can be interrupted for enclitics, and also for postpositives.

What else can interrupt a prepositional phrase or noun phrase?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » January 19th, 2017, 5:30 am

Jonathan Robie wrote: What else can interrupt a prepositional phrase or noun phrase?
γαρ and δε come to mind immediately, but their positioning is quite mechanical.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 19th, 2017, 10:29 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:What else can interrupt a prepositional phrase or noun phrase?
γαρ and δε come to mind immediately, but their positioning is quite mechanical.
γαρ and δε are the kind of thing I meant by postpositives.

If enclitics and postpositives are the only things that interrupt noun phrases and verb phrases, then they are still very tightly structured, even with respect to word order. If other things can interrupt them, that says something interesting.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

RandallButh
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by RandallButh » January 19th, 2017, 11:09 am

they are not the only things that can interrupt.
Most anything can interrupt, though I haven't ever checked to see what kind of constraints exist on length and structural heaviness.

would you accept Acts 13:32 τὴν πρὸς τοὺς πατέρας ἐπαγγελίαν as a kind of interruption?
Or do you want something more complex, where part of the structure may come before a verb and the rest after a verb or clause.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 19th, 2017, 11:33 am

RandallButh wrote:would you accept Acts 13:32 τὴν πρὸς τοὺς πατέρας ἐπαγγελίαν as a kind of interruption?
Not really, that's a typical structure for a noun phrase. But I haven't really put my finger on what I'm calling an interruption, so my thinking is a little fuzzy still.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 19th, 2017, 9:50 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:OK, so a prepositional phrase or noun phrase can be interrupted for enclitics, and also for postpositives.

What else can interrupt a prepositional phrase or noun phrase?
Shouldn't this be something that can be queried? ;)
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 19th, 2017, 9:57 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:OK, so a prepositional phrase or noun phrase can be interrupted for enclitics, and also for postpositives.

What else can interrupt a prepositional phrase or noun phrase?
Shouldn't this be something that can be queried? ;)
That's the reason I'm asking. I can locate discontinuities in the current trees, but they don't have an adequate representation of them. I pulled up the examples i showed here using queries. These queries also pull up too many false positives.

I'm trying to rework the low fat syntax trees so that they maintain word order and adequately represents things like postpositives and enclitics. The grammar already handles nested structures like the one Randall Buth pointed out. I may encounter other cases as I go. It's going to take some time - I am not sure that I can automate this transformation, but it might be possible if I knew enough about what can occur.

For postpositives, I know what to do. For enclitics, I'm not sure what to do. The grammar we have been using wouldn't allow a verb where these occur. I could let the grammar understand about enclitics, and allow enclitics in a phrase like this. But it's best to understand the larger landscape before making this kind of decision.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Word Order: Y2 Hyperbaton in Matthew 1:20

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 22nd, 2017, 6:28 pm

You need a representation that can handle two things: dependencies (which element depends on which) and word order (which element precedes which). Constituency trees (which is the base representation of your syntax trees, IIRC) basically assume that dependency and linear order go together, which works well for English but not so much for Greek. I suppose you can hack the representation to account for hyperbaton, but my preference would be to use a representation originally designed for Greek instead of one for English.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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