Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»

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Mike Baber
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Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»

Post by Mike Baber » June 14th, 2012, 5:08 pm

Regarding the phrase «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ», strictly syntactically and grammatically speaking (please, no theological critique or insight), can the phrase be translated as, "For 'Israel' is not all these who are of Israel"?
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David Lim
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Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»

Post by David Lim » June 15th, 2012, 9:57 am

Mike Baber wrote:Regarding the phrase «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ», strictly syntactically and grammatically speaking (please, no theological critique or insight), can the phrase be translated as, "For 'Israel' is not all these who are of Israel"?
I think there is no other way except to take "ου παντες οι εξ ισραηλ ουτοι" as the "subject" of the implicit verb because it is made so by "οι" and then also "ουτοι", thus I think it should be "for not all these [ones] out of Israel [are] Israel".
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Mike Baber
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Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»

Post by Mike Baber » June 15th, 2012, 2:43 pm

So, we're saying the same thing, it seems, just ordering the words differently.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 15th, 2012, 3:25 pm

Mike Baber wrote:So, we're saying the same thing, it seems, just ordering the words differently.
I don't think so, because your proposal swaps the subject and predicate nominative. They only mean the same thing if the implied verb to be is equative.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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David Lim
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Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»

Post by David Lim » June 15th, 2012, 9:50 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Mike Baber wrote:So, we're saying the same thing, it seems, just ordering the words differently.
I don't think so, because your proposal swaps the subject and predicate nominative. They only mean the same thing if the implied verb to be is equative.
Yup, as Stephen said, there is a slight difference:
(1) "not all these [ones] out of Israel [are] Israel" implies "of these ones of Israel, not all are actually Israel" ("some that are actually Israel are not of these ones of Israel")
(2) "Israel [is] not all these [ones] out of Israel" implies "Israel is actually not all of these ones of Israel" ("some of these ones of Israel are actually not Israel")
Haha I hope I have not made it more confusing.

And also I interpreted the last "ισραηλ" to be nominative, but I noticed many translations that take it as a genitive. Is there anything I missed? My reason for my choice is the similar structure of the next phrase "ουδ οτι εισιν σπερμα αβρααμ παντες τεκνα", but it is not very conclusive to me anyway.
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