Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»
Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
-
- Posts: 97
- Joined: May 30th, 2011, 11:25 pm
- Location: Texas
Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»
Regarding the phrase «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ», strictly syntactically and grammatically speaking (please, no theological critique or insight), can the phrase be translated as, "For 'Israel' is not all these who are of Israel"?
Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»
I think there is no other way except to take "ου παντες οι εξ ισραηλ ουτοι" as the "subject" of the implicit verb because it is made so by "οι" and then also "ουτοι", thus I think it should be "for not all these [ones] out of Israel [are] Israel".Mike Baber wrote:Regarding the phrase «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ», strictly syntactically and grammatically speaking (please, no theological critique or insight), can the phrase be translated as, "For 'Israel' is not all these who are of Israel"?
δαυιδ λιμ
-
- Posts: 97
- Joined: May 30th, 2011, 11:25 pm
- Location: Texas
Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»
So, we're saying the same thing, it seems, just ordering the words differently.
-
- Posts: 3355
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»
I don't think so, because your proposal swaps the subject and predicate nominative. They only mean the same thing if the implied verb to be is equative.Mike Baber wrote:So, we're saying the same thing, it seems, just ordering the words differently.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: Romans 9:6 «οὐ γὰρ πάντες οἱ ἐξ Ἰσραήλ οὗτοι Ἰσραήλ»
Yup, as Stephen said, there is a slight difference:Stephen Carlson wrote:I don't think so, because your proposal swaps the subject and predicate nominative. They only mean the same thing if the implied verb to be is equative.Mike Baber wrote:So, we're saying the same thing, it seems, just ordering the words differently.
(1) "not all these [ones] out of Israel [are] Israel" implies "of these ones of Israel, not all are actually Israel" ("some that are actually Israel are not of these ones of Israel")
(2) "Israel [is] not all these [ones] out of Israel" implies "Israel is actually not all of these ones of Israel" ("some of these ones of Israel are actually not Israel")
Haha I hope I have not made it more confusing.
And also I interpreted the last "ισραηλ" to be nominative, but I noticed many translations that take it as a genitive. Is there anything I missed? My reason for my choice is the similar structure of the next phrase "ουδ οτι εισιν σπερμα αβρααμ παντες τεκνα", but it is not very conclusive to me anyway.
δαυιδ λιμ