τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

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Andrew Chapman
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τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Andrew Chapman » July 11th, 2013, 2:49 pm

Please forgive me asking a very tiny point, but it might be of relevance to an argument advanced by one Joseph Prince, that we know that Ananias and Sapphira were unbelievers because Ananias is introduced in Acts 5:1 as Ἀνὴρ δέ τις Ἁνανίας, and that ἀνὴρ τις is a term used only of unbelievers (Acts 8:9, 10:1, 14:8), whereas when introducing a believer, Luke uses μαθητής τις (Acts 9:10, 9:36, 16:1).

I would like to ask whether Acts 11:20 might be a counter-example:

ἦσαν δέ τινες ἐξ αὐτῶν ἄνδρες Κύπριοι καὶ Κυρηναῖοι, οἵτινες ἐλθόντες εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν ἐλάλουν καὶ πρὸς τοὺς Ἑλληνιστάς, εὐαγγελιζόμενοι τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν.

My tiny point is whether τινες can be taken with ἄνδρες - there were certain men from them: men of Cyrene etc.; or whether it should be - there were certain from them: men of Cyrene etc.

Andrew
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 11th, 2013, 3:53 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:Please forgive me asking a very tiny point, but it might be of relevance to an argument advanced by one Joseph Prince, that we know that Ananias and Sapphira were unbelievers because Ananias is introduced in Acts 5:1 as Ἀνὴρ δέ τις Ἁνανίας, and that ἀνὴρ τις is a term used only of unbelievers (Acts 8:9, 10:1, 14:8), whereas when introducing a believer, Luke uses μαθητής τις (Acts 9:10, 9:36, 16:1).
No point is too small for B-Greek.
Andrew Chapman wrote:I would like to ask whether Acts 11:20 might be a counter-example:

ἦσαν δέ τινες ἐξ αὐτῶν ἄνδρες Κύπριοι καὶ Κυρηναῖοι, οἵτινες ἐλθόντες εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν ἐλάλουν καὶ πρὸς τοὺς Ἑλληνιστάς, εὐαγγελιζόμενοι τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν.

My tiny point is whether τινες can be taken with ἄνδρες - there were certain men from them: men of Cyrene etc.; or whether it should be - there were certain from them: men of Cyrene etc.
I think this is a different construction from ἀνὴρ τις. I think τινες ἐξ αὐτῶν refers to "some of" the group mentioned at the beginning of verse 9, the people who had fled because of the persecution of Stephen. Some of those were "men of Cyprus and Cyrene". Let me color code this:
9 Οἱ μὲν οὖν διασπαρέντες ἀπὸ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς γενομένης ἐπὶ Στεφάνῳ διῆλθον ἕως Φοινίκης καὶ Κύπρου καὶ Ἀντιοχείας μηδενὶ λαλοῦντες τὸν λόγον εἰ μὴ μόνον Ἰουδαίοις. 20 ἦσαν δέ τινες ἐξ αὐτῶν ἄνδρες Κύπριοι καὶ Κυρηναῖοι, οἵτινες ἐλθόντες εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν ἐλάλουν καὶ πρὸς τοὺς Ἑλληνιστάς, εὐαγγελιζόμενοι τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν.
Does that help?
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 11th, 2013, 4:13 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:Please forgive me asking a very tiny point, but it might be of relevance to an argument advanced by one Joseph Prince, that we know that Ananias and Sapphira were unbelievers because Ananias is introduced in Acts 5:1 as Ἀνὴρ δέ τις Ἁνανίας, and that ἀνὴρ τις is a term used only of unbelievers (Acts 8:9, 10:1, 14:8), whereas when introducing a believer, Luke uses μαθητής τις (Acts 9:10, 9:36, 16:1).
I'm skeptical of the claim. I don't think that six data points are sufficient to substantiate this.
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 11th, 2013, 4:23 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm skeptical of the claim. I don't think that six data points are sufficient to substantiate this.
I'm also skeptical of the claim.
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by MAubrey » July 11th, 2013, 7:07 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm skeptical of the claim. I don't think that six data points are sufficient to substantiate this.
I'm also skeptical of the claim.
Is three a crowd?
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Louis L Sorenson » July 11th, 2013, 10:08 pm

Ανδρέας ἔγραψε·
we know that Ananias and Sapphira were unbelievers because Ananias is introduced in Acts 5:1 as Ἀνὴρ δέ τις Ἁνανίας, and that ἀνὴρ τις is a term used only of unbelievers (Acts 8:9, 10:1, 14:8), whereas when introducing a believer, Luke uses μαθητής τις (Acts 9:10, 9:36, 16:1).
So the phrase 'a certain man' = 'a certain non-believer.' Let's base this on the 2x in the NT that ἀνήρ τις occurs (Lk 8.27, Ac 25.14) and the 3x structure ἀνὴρ δέ τις, (Ac 5.1; 8.9; 10.1). By logic, you would need to say that the only way a NT author refers to a believer is by using a religious membership term (μαθητής, πρεσβύτερος, ποιμήν, κτλ.)

Let's ask Justin Martyr....

Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone (0645: 003)
“Die ältesten Apologeten”, Ed. Goodspeed, E.J.
Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.
Chapter 81, section 4, line 1

καὶ ἔπειτα καὶ παρ' ἡμῖν ἀνήρ τις, ᾧ
ὄνομα Ἰωάννης, εἷς τῶν ἀποστόλων τοῦ Χριστοῦ
, ἐν ἀποκαλύψει
γενομένῃ αὐτῷ χίλια ἔτη ποιήσειν ἐν Ἰερουσαλὴμ τοὺς τῷ ἡμε-
τέρῳ Χριστῷ πιστεύσαντας προεφήτευσε, καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα τὴν καθο-
λικὴν καί, συνελόντι φάναι, αἰωνίαν ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἅμα πάντων
ἀνάστασιν γενήσεσθαι καὶ κρίσιν. ὅπερ καὶ ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν
εἶπεν, ὅτι Οὔτε γαμήσουσιν οὔτε γαμηθήσονται, ἀλλὰ ἰσάγγελοι
ἔσονται, τέκνα τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἀναστάσεως ὄντες.
Παρὰ γὰρ ἡμῖν καὶ μέχρι νῦν προφητικὰ χαρίσματά
ἐστιν, ἐξ οὗ καὶ αὐτοὶ συνιέναι ὀφείλετε, ὅτι τὰ πάλαι ἐν τῷ
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » July 11th, 2013, 10:09 pm

My guess is Joseph Prince doesn't read Greek. For an author to use such a generic term as ανηρ τις to specifically designate non-Christians... add me to the crowd of skeptics.

For a counter example, I'd suggest Acts 22:12 — ανανιας δε τις ανηρ ευσεβης κατα τον νομον μαρτυρουμενος υπο παντων των κατοικουντων ιουδαιων.

The order is reversed – it's τις ανηρ rather than ανηρ τις – but I think it still fits.
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Andrew Chapman » July 12th, 2013, 6:31 am

Thank you for all your answers. I think my original question re Acts 11:20, should perhaps have been phrased: 'Is it possible that τινες is being used adjectivally rather than substantivally?' - I have read in a grammar (Blass) that its position when used adjectivally is unrestricted, and that it can stand before its substantive. I did realise that the αὐτων was referrring back to the οἱ διασπαρέντες, so the small question was whether it could be τινες ἀνδρες from those who were scattered, who were from Cyprus and Cyrene, rather than τινες, some of these, who were men from Cyprus and Cyrene?

Thank you for the suggested counter-example of 22:12. A similar question arises, in my mind at least, as to whether τις can be taken with ἀνὴρ, or has to be taken with Ἁνανίας, as it usually is.

As to whether Joseph Prince reads Greek, this is his take on the meaning of παιδεύω in Hebrews 12:6:
My friend, there is confusion in the church because the original Greek word here for "chastens" is poorly translated. The Greek word here is paideuo, which means "child training". It does not mean "to punish". Pai is where you get the word "pediatrician" (a doctor who specializes in treating children), while deuo means "to teach a child". You will find that the translation of the word paideuo as "child training" is more consistent with the context of the passage.
Andrew
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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by cwconrad » July 12th, 2013, 8:40 am

Andrew Chapman wrote:Thank you for all your answers. I think my original question re Acts 11:20, should perhaps have been phrased: 'Is it possible that τινες is being used adjectivally rather than substantivally?' - I have read in a grammar (Blass) that its position when used adjectivally is unrestricted, and that it can stand before its substantive. I did realise that the αὐτων was referrring back to the οἱ διασπαρέντες, so the small question was whether it could be τινες ἀνδρες from those who were scattered, who were from Cyprus and Cyrene, rather than τινες, some of these, who were men from Cyprus and Cyrene?

Thank you for the suggested counter-example of 22:12. A similar question arises, in my mind at least, as to whether τις can be taken with ἀνὴρ, or has to be taken with Ἁνανίας, as it usually is.
Text of Acts 22:12 Ανανίας δέ τις, ἀνὴρ εὐλαβὴς κατὰ τὸν νόμον, μαρτυρούμενος ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν κατοικούντων Ἰουδαίων,

This τις certainly must construe with Ανανίας; to be construed with ἀνὴρ, it would have to be ἀνήρ τις (the enclitic would have to follow upon ἀνήρ)
Andrew Chapman wrote:As to whether Joseph Prince reads Greek, this is his take on the meaning of παιδεύω in Hebrews 12:6:
My friend, there is confusion in the church because the original Greek word here for "chastens" is poorly translated. The Greek word here is paideuo, which means "child training". It does not mean "to punish". Pai is where you get the word "pediatrician" (a doctor who specializes in treating children), while deuo means "to teach a child". You will find that the translation of the word paideuo as "child training" is more consistent with the context of the passage.
Andrew
That resolves it pretty clearly. When he says that deuo means "teach a child" he clearly reveals that he doesn't really know Greek at all. He appears to be using a "divide and conquer" strategy of etymological speculation.
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ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

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Re: τινες ἐξ αὐτων ἄνδρες Acts 11:20

Post by Andrew Chapman » July 12th, 2013, 1:04 pm

While disciples are obviously believers, is the converse true? To me, to call someone a μαθητής is probably saying something more than that they believe. Does it not perhaps carry a connotation of obedience and sincerity - certainly this might be said of Ananias of Damascus, Dorcas, and Timothy. Could the multitude of πιστεύοντες of Acts 5:14 equally have been termed μαθηταί, or is a process of discipleship and/or testing needed first?

μᾶλλον δὲ προσετίθεντο πιστεύοντες τῷ κυρίῳ πλήθη ἀνδρῶν τε καὶ γυναικῶν·

It seems to me that if Ananias and Sapphira were in fact believers, but disobedient and/or double-minded ones, one would not really expect Luke to call them μαθηταί.

Andrew
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