2 Cor. 5:20

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Lee Moses
Posts: 18
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:09 pm

Re: 2 Cor. 5:20

Post by Lee Moses » February 3rd, 2014, 8:36 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:It would seem - correct me if I've skipped one - that this supplied "you " of verse 20 is the only exclusive "we" in a chapter of inclusive "we"'s.
If you mean inclusive of the addressees, I do not believe this is correct. Vv. 11-13 make clear that "we" includes Paul, but not the Corinthians:

11 Εἰδότες οὖν τὸν φόβον τοῦ κυρίου ἀνθρώπους πείθομεν, θεῷ δὲ πεφανερώμεθα· ἐλπίζω δὲ καὶ ἐν ταῖς συνειδήσεσιν ὑμῶν πεφανερῶσθαι.
12 οὐ πάλιν ἑαυτοὺς συνιστάνομεν ὑμῖν ἀλλὰ ἀφορμὴν διδόντες ὑμῖν καυχήματος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν, ἵνα ἔχητε πρὸς τοὺς ἐν προσώπῳ καυχωμένους καὶ μὴ ἐν καρδίᾳ.
13 εἴτε γὰρ ἐξέστημεν, θεῷ· εἴτε σωφρονοῦμεν, ὑμῖν.

In this chapter, he is discussing all that he has done and continues to do, as he tells the Corinthians, ὑμῖν.
0 x



Scott Lawson
Posts: 363
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 6:36 pm

Re: 2 Cor. 5:20

Post by Scott Lawson » February 3rd, 2014, 10:45 pm

cwconrad wrote:Makes one wonder how readers made out in those "dim, olden' days before editors and punctuators showed us how we ought to anatomize the text in order to make it read the way we think we'd like to read it. ;)
Perhaps, therefore, the need for the encouragement from Paul to Timothy at 1Tim 4:13: " ...πρόσεχε τῇ ἀναγνὼσει..."? Or would that have applied only to Hebrew? μη γενοιτο that it should apply to Greek. ;-)
0 x
Scott Lawson

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 2 Cor. 5:20

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 4th, 2014, 6:57 am

Lee Moses wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:It would seem - correct me if I've skipped one - that this supplied "you " of verse 20 is the only exclusive "we" in a chapter of inclusive "we"'s.
If you mean inclusive of the addressees, I do not believe this is correct. Vv. 11-13 make clear that "we" includes Paul, but not the Corinthians:

11 Εἰδότες οὖν τὸν φόβον τοῦ κυρίου ἀνθρώπους πείθομεν, θεῷ δὲ πεφανερώμεθα· ἐλπίζω δὲ καὶ ἐν ταῖς συνειδήσεσιν ὑμῶν πεφανερῶσθαι.
12 οὐ πάλιν ἑαυτοὺς συνιστάνομεν ὑμῖν ἀλλὰ ἀφορμὴν διδόντες ὑμῖν καυχήματος ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν, ἵνα ἔχητε πρὸς τοὺς ἐν προσώπῳ καυχωμένους καὶ μὴ ἐν καρδίᾳ.
13 εἴτε γὰρ ἐξέστημεν, θεῷ· εἴτε σωφρονοῦμεν, ὑμῖν.

In this chapter, he is discussing all that he has done and continues to do, as he tells the Corinthians, ὑμῖν.
Yes, you seem to be right about those verses. Thank you for your correction and giving me a chance to look at this question again more closely.

The majority of NTG 1st person plural pronouns are inclusive of somebody at least. [The pronoun can refer on a scale from incuding all of humanity to including just the speaker concerned.] It seems that in this chapter there are 3 plausible inclusivities. There are:
2 Corinthians 5:10 wrote:Τοὺς γὰρ πάντας ἡμᾶς φανερωθῆναι δεῖ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ χριστοῦ
"For we must all present ourselves before the judgement of Christ"
This verse seems to be inclusive referring to all peopl e - something for our common humanity.
2 Corinthians 5:5 (RP) wrote:Ὁ δὲ κατεργασάμενος ἡμᾶς εἰς αὐτὸ τοῦτο θεός, ὁ καὶ δοὺς ἡμῖν τὸν ἀρραβῶνα τοῦ πνεύματος.
This verse seems to refer to all christians.
Εἴτε γὰρ ἐξέστημεν, θεῷ· εἴτε σωφρονοῦμεν, ὑμῖν.
"For if are beside ourselves, it is for you. If we are soberminded- it is for you."
Here the inclusivity is for Paul and his fellow ministers, who are the "we" and the Corinthians are the "you".

The vere we are looking at, verse 20, could possibly be any one of those scale of inclusivities. Which one of them is most plausible is ultimately that is a matter of discussion and interpretation.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”