Your recent posts have given new clarifications and added extra evidence that appear to shutter up a number of the windows out of which I had been looking out of for opportunity.
I would need peer review / input before I assert forcefully this view which I'm about to postulate:
- With regards to whether ἐπὶ τὰ πρόσωπα corresponds to ετι τα πρωτα or to οτι τα πρωτα, there only seems to be one occurance of ܡܟܿܝܠ "hereafter" (in the negative - "any longer") - with the first ܢܗܘܐ (here) "will be" and not with the second, which suggested to me that I should hold the view that the second ετι was taken as ἐπὶ, and that the οτι wasn't there in the text that was being translated from. But... since the ܬܿܘܼܒܼ "(ever) again" is there, then that is fine. That would suggest that ἔτι is taken here with two different sense - a continuous thing will not continue, and a number of recurrent things will not recur.
Stirling Bartholomew wrote:It looks like a nonsense reading but I don't totally understand how a pronominal suffix works in Syriac.
My Syriac is a bit all over the place, but as good as I have, I'm willing to share with you.
The wikionary entry for ܐܦܐ shows that ܐܦܝܗ could only be the feminine plural form.
The dirrect answer to your question is that no ܐܦܐ doesn't need to have the feminine pronoun suffixed, but here it does have it.
Stirling Bartholomew wrote:My previous suggestion that αὐτῆς refers back to the holy city has been dropped from consideration.
If it is not the city then perhaps it is the bride. In some marriage customs is considered good for a bride to cry for the loss of her mother and family.
Stephen Carlson wrote:Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote:ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
It is way off Greek topic-wise. If anyone would like to understand the Syriac to be more than foreign-looking pencil scratching, they could bear with the following poor explanation of mine.
If someone didn't want to do that, they could feel free to leave it on the side of their plate along with the cauliflower and scroll down to the next reply.
Most basic to following the Syriac is that the direction of reading the text begins with the first thing you can see on the
right hand side of the first line and then moves from right to left across the lines, so the last word is the left-most word on the bottom most line.
Going from easiest to hardest now.... The conjunction -ܘ /w/ "and" is on the front of words. I count 5 of them, so let's mark them in green.
Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote: ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
The next easy thing to recognise is the negative particle ܠܐ. I count 4 of them, and let's mark them (red of course
):
Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote: ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
Next, the prepositons ܡܢ = ἀπό, ἐκ "from" and ܥܠ ἐπί "on". They are like how one part of the sentence flows to the next, so let's mark those blue
.
Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote: ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
Now, lets have a look at the indeclinable words ܟܿܠ /kul/ "all", ܡܟܿܝܠ (ἔτι) "hereafter" / "already" / "therefore" and ܬܿܘܼܒܼ /tūb/ (ἔτι) "again" which I'll colour a dreadful shade of light blue because they don't stand out, but they are important none-the-less.
Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote: ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
Having done just those few things, we do already understand a lot of the language of this verse. Amazing! We've had an easy run till now. 7 words have given us 14 meanings, That has been because the defence is deep in their own territory and the run has been unchallenged. Let's take it over the halfway line by adding to our knowledge the masculine pronoun ܗܘܼ /hū/ "he". To know this we have probably had to memorise four forms, viz. ܗܘܼ /hū/ "he", ܗܢܘܢ /hɑnon/ "they", "those" (m.), ܗܝ /hī/ "she", and ܗܢܝܢ /hɑne(j)n/ "they", "those"(f.). We had to do a little bit of logical thinking to realise that ܗܘܼ was one of four and which one it was, so let's colour that mauve to show we've gotten it and underline it because we had to work for it.
Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote: ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
So, now we have 10 words for 15 meanings, things are getting a little more difficult. We could work through all the rest of the words and at the end get 4 points (rugby), or we could take a shot at a field-goal 3 points. We are not really trying to learn Syriac here on B-Greek, so let's skip the rest and just look at the structure that we have so far, and line it up with the Greek that we are familiar with....
ܢܠܚܐ - ἐξαλείψει (wash away - suggesting that the Greek was understood to mean wipe with a damp cloth not a dry one)
ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ (plural) - δάκρυον
ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈ - ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν Look in
the inflection section of the wikionary entry for ܥܝܢܐ to identify the form with αὐτῶν
ܡܘܬܿܐ - ὁ θάνατος
ܢܗܘܐ - ἔσται
ܐܒܼܠܐ - πένθος (grief / mourning)
ܪܘܒܿܐ - κραυγή (tumult)
ܟܿܐܒܼܐ - πόνος (grief / pain)
ܐܦܿܝܗ̈ - Does this plural form have singular meaning in Syriac? I
suspect that it equates to πρόσωπον in Greek even though it is plural in form in the Syriac. That does away with the non-sense translation that "she" (whoever she may be), has a number of faces.
Anyway, lets underline those words which we can easily interline from the Greek - to let zombies eat Barry's Syriac brain!
Peshitta Rev 21:4 wrote: ܘܗܘܼ ܢܠܚܐ ܟܿܠ ܕܿܡܥܐ̈ ܡܢ ܥܝܢܝܗܘܼܢ̈܂ ܘܡܘܬܿܐ ܠܐ ܢܗܘܐ ܡܟܿܝܠ܂ ܘܠܐ ܐܒܼܠܐ ܘܠܐ ܪܘܒܿܐ܂ ܘܠܐ ܟܿܐܒܼܐ ܬܿܘܼܒܼ ܢܗܘܐ ܥܠ ܐܦܿܝܗ̈܂
So, for non-Syriac scholars to make sense of this text, we would need 4 or 5 langauge words memorised, it would help to know all four forms of the pronoun, and be able to recognise a couple of adverbs. Other things can be gotten from the Greek (more or less).