ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think that the way you have taken ἐνεστήκασι there as "are still pending".
That isn't my translation, Perseus.
XI. PLAIDOYER SUR LA SUCCESSION D'HAGNIAS. Περὶ τοῦ Ἁγνίου κλήρου. Traduction française : Dareste. wrote:Il y a des procès pendants, en faux témoignage, or la loi veut qu'en cas de condamnation pour faux témoignage, 46. la procédure en adjudication de succession soit entièrement recommencée.
I read French as a dead language, but that seems to agree with the Perseus translation.
But this one seems to be present.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Andrew Chapman
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Thanks, Stephen, yes certainly, I can see that it could be a kind of present that continues into the future. Indeed, one or two have seen this for the perfect of ἐνίστημι - if something has 'set in', then it is likely to continue. With regard to Galatians 1.4 - ὅπως ἐξέληται ἡμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος πονηροῦ - Ellicott distinguishes between:
a) ὁ νῦν αἰὼν .. [and] b) .. 'the commencing age' .. which had already begun;
Likewise, Meyer:
Certainly in practical meaning ἐνεστώς may denote present (hence in the grammarians, ὁ ἐνεστὼς χρόνος, tempus praesens), but always only with the definite reference suggested by the literal signification, setting in, that is, in the course of entrance, that which has already begun.
Either way, it refers to something already present.

BDAG has categories 1) 'to take place as an event'; 2) 'to be present as condition or thing at the time of speaking'; 3) 'to be about to occur, with connotation of threatening'. Cited under 3 is:

ἀλλ' ἐνίστασθαι τοῖς Καρχηδονίοις [Polybius, histories, 3.97.1]
'but to keep up the pressure on the Carthaginians' [Loeb]; 'press hard' [BDAG]

It seems to me that if something is so impending that you can actually feel the pressure of it, then it is already here.

τῆς σκηνοπηγίας ἑορτῆς ἐνστάσης [Josephus, Antiquities 4.209]
'at the season of the feast of tabernacles' [Loeb]

I don't see what this is doing under category 3..

ἐὰν γὰρ περὶ τῶν ἐνεστώτων ἢ μελλόντων γράφω ὑμῖν, [Letter of Barnabas 17.2]
'For if I should write to you concerning things immediate or future,' [Lightfoot]

Nor especially this, where we have the perfect tense ..

Andrew
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by cwconrad »

Sorry, but I find myself puzzled by the concern/focus of this thread. Very likely I haven't understood the original question, but I get the impression that the focus is as much (or more) upon the English used to convey a particular sense of the verb ἐνίστασθαι as it is upon the precise distinction of sense between the different tenses of the verb. Am I mistaken?

It seems to me that the discussion concerns fundamentally the intransitive senses of ἐνίστασθαι as a verb indicating temporal reference of an event. As I see it, the distinction is not really so vague as to require all the hair-splitting:

ἐνίστασθαι (imperfective): impend, be imminent, "come up" (be on the way)
ἐνστῆναι (perfective): arrive (at)
ἐνεστηκέναι (stative): be present (at), be current, be in (ongoing) process

In these terms I take the sense of ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου in 2 Thess 2:2 to be "is at hand" or "is here now."

And in Aristophanes Nub. 779, I would understand εἰ πρόσθεν ἔτι μιᾶς ἐνεστώσης δίκης,/ πρὶν τὴν ἐμὴν καλεῖσθ᾽, ἀπαγξαίμην τρέχων in terms of its potential condition, as "If one lawsuit were to be still in process before my own suit should be called up, I'd hang myself/choke to death."

Nor do I see any problem in 1 Cor 7:26 with τὴν ἐνεστῶσαν ἀνάγκην as "the pressure currently confronting (us)." That is, right now is "when push comes to shove."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Andrew Chapman
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Thanks, Carl. By way of explanation, a friend of mine is doing a debate on TV next week about the timing of the rapture (post-trib versus pre-trib). The man he is debating with has written in a book [David Pawson, When Jesus Returns, Hodder & Stoughton, 1995, p. 189]:
.. the believers at Thessalonica .. were persuaded.. to think that the 'day of the Lord' was already dawning (2 Thess 2:1-2; the last phrase, usually translated 'has already come' can also mean 'is imminent', as in 1 Cor 7:26 and 2 Tim 3:1
Pawson is here understanding 'imminent' to mean 'can come at any moment'. He is claiming this scripture as evidence against the idea that Jesus can come at any time. 'Can come at any moment' is obviously quite different from 'has already come'. I am not quite sure where to place your 'at hand' between the two. I understand it to mean that it is not quite here yet, but with a higher degree of certainty that it will be here very soon, than is communicated by 'any moment' imminency.

The verb is future in 2 Tim 3.1, so this is hardly relevant. I still have difficulty in understanding how, in the perfect tense, it can mean 'almost here (but not quite)'. Or is it perhaps that by 'at hand' you mean somehow that it is here, but close by, as it were?

Thanks for your help with this,

Andrew
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Andrew Chapman wrote: ... about the timing of the rapture ... debating
I still have difficulty in understanding how, in the perfect tense, it can mean 'almost here (but not quite)'.
Because idioms are determined by usage not by some sort of bottom up grammatical/syntactical calculus. We can attempt to provide a rational explanation for how an idiom is used but when all the smoke clears it comes down to verbal habits of a particular language community. Decades ago generative linguists call this skewing. But perhaps in this case the skewing is only in the minds of those want to render this in English as a component in a debate about eschatology. In other words it might be perfectly normal usage in Koine but rendered awkward by attempts to secure a proof text.



Carl wrote:
In these terms I take the sense of ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου in 2 Thess 2:2 to be "is at hand" or "is here now."
I agree and IMHO this will not provide much in the way of "ammunition" for a debate on the rapture.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:Because idioms are determined by usage not by some sort of bottom up grammatical/syntactical calculus. We can attempt to provide a rational explanation for how an idiom is used but when all the smoke clears it comes down to verbal habits of a particular language community. Decades ago generative linguists call this skewing.
I certainly accept this with regard to the meaning of words and phrases. I am more surprised by it with regard to the sense of a tense, which seems to me more foundational. Can one use the perfect tense to express the thought of something that hasn't happened yet, but is imminent? Here are a couple more of the instances cited by L&S. Under B.III, 'to be upon, threaten' they cite:
τοιούτων δὲ τοῖσι Σπαρτιήτῃσι ἐνεστεώτων πρηγμάτων ἧκε ὁ Σαρδιηνὸς κῆρυξ δεόμενος Κροίσῳ βοηθέειν πολιορκεομένῳ. [Herodotus 1.83.1
The Sardian herald came after this had happened to the Spartans to ask for their help for Croesus, now besieged; [Godley]
Here, if the translator is right, it seems to be a normal perfect: 'these things having happened'.

Then under L&S, B.III, 'to be at hand, arise', they cite:
ἔτι τοῦ πολέμου τοῦ πρὸς Φίλιππον ὑμῖν ἐνεστηκότος, [Aeschines, On the Embassy, 2.58]
when the war between you and Philip was still in progress, [Adams]
Here it seems to be a present. So I still haven't found any usage at all, so far as I can see.
But perhaps in this case the skewing is only in the minds of those want to render this in English as a component in a debate about eschatology. In other words it might be perfectly normal usage in Koine but rendered awkward by attempts to secure a proof text.
I think a common sense difficulty has been perceived by many, unconnected between the debate between pre-millenialists - namely, it has been wondered how the Thessalonians could possibly believe that the Day of the Lord had already come. What, did they think that Jesus had already returned? (would be the objection). So, these have seen it to be easier to have Paul saying that they thought that the coming of the Lord was imminent.
'In these terms I take the sense of ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου in 2 Thess 2:2 to be "is at hand" or "is here now." '

I agree...
But surely there is an common sense difference between 'at hand', which the OED defines in its temporal sense as 'Near in time; on the point of happening; imminent.', and 'here now'.

Andrew
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Andrew:
I think a common sense difficulty has been perceived by many, unconnected between the debate between pre-millenialists - namely, it has been wondered how the Thessalonians could possibly believe that the Day of the Lord had already come. What, did they think that Jesus had already returned? (would be the objection). So, these have seen it to be easier to have Paul saying that they thought that the coming of the Lord was imminent.
Well Leon Morris (1&2 Thes.1959) pointed out that the arrival of "the Day of the Lord" is a complex problem in Pauline eschatology. Morris adobted "be present" as the sense of ἐνέστηκεν in ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου. It is notoriously difficult to reconstruct the false teaching that Paul is addressing, some sort of over-realized eschatology like some of the Jesus People in 1970 who had read Hal Lindsey and were just sort of "hanging out" waiting for it all to happen.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Stephen Hughes »

ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου.
I think it might be insightful to side-step the debate-driven purpose of the question and ask what is the character of the ἡμέρα in ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου in this context.

In contradistinction darkness, we have ἡμέρα, in a general sense, and so the things that we do need to be those that are done during the daylight hours - metaphorically, righteous deeds. That is obviously one of the things meant by using the Day of the Lord.

What we didn't discuss here (in this thread) is the sense and associations of ἐνέστηκεν here, only its time relationship to other actions. Intuitively, it could be taken as something like dawn. A day is very present in our expectation for a while, before the sun actually breaks through at the horizon - the sort of pre-dawn experience that posting on B-Greek late into the night sometimes brings. But given the contexts that we have been finding ἐνέστηκεν in throughout this discussion - court cases - the collocation of ἐνέστηκεν with ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου to me at least suggests that ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου is referring to the day of reckoning and judgement.

Of course the reckoning / judgement is of the works of darkness which are made visible in the light (of the day), so the natural sense is not lost by using a probably judicial collocation.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Andrew Chapman
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Yes, if like Morris, we take 'the day of the Lord' as 'a complex idea .. [including] many events', then there is no particular difficulty in supposing that the Thessalonians might have thought that 'this series of events had begun to unfold'. [Morris, Thessalonians, Tyndale, 1956]

Here is another text listed by BDAG under its category 3 'to be about to occur, with connotation of threatening':
διαφύλαξόν με ἀπὸ παντὸς φόβου, ἀπὸ παντὸς κινδύνου τοῦ ἐνεστῶτός μοι ἐν τῇ σήμερον ἡμέρᾳ, ἐν τῇ ἄρτι ὥρᾳ.

protect me from all fear, from all danger that threatens me in the present day, in the present hour.” [Greek Magical Papyri, PGM XIII.1049]
Certainly there is a sense of imminence, but this is surely inherent in the idea of danger - it signifies that something bad could happen at any moment. I am not too sure what τοῦ ἐνεστῶτός signifies here - perhaps that the objective dangers are pressing upon the person, are being experienced inwardly (?).

F. F. Bruce on 2 Thessalonians 2.2:
'It cannot be seriously disputed that "is present" is the natural sense of ἐνέστηκεν.'
Andrew
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ἐνέστηκεν in 2 Thessalonians 2.2

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Andrew Chapman wrote:Yes, if like Morris, we take 'the day of the Lord' as 'a complex idea .. [including] many events', then there is no particular difficulty in supposing that the Thessalonians might have thought that 'this series of events had begun to unfold'. [Morris, Thessalonians, Tyndale, 1956]

Here is another text listed by BDAG under its category 3 'to be about to occur, with connotation of threatening':
διαφύλαξόν με ἀπὸ παντὸς φόβου, ἀπὸ παντὸς κινδύνου τοῦ ἐνεστῶτός μοι ἐν τῇ σήμερον ἡμέρᾳ, ἐν τῇ ἄρτι ὥρᾳ.

protect me from all fear, from all danger that threatens me in the present day, in the present hour.” [Greek Magical Papyri, PGM XIII.1049]
Certainly there is a sense of imminence, but this is surely inherent in the idea of danger - it signifies that something bad could happen at any moment. I am not too sure what τοῦ ἐνεστῶτός signifies here - perhaps that the objective dangers are pressing upon the person, are being experienced inwardly (?).

F. F. Bruce on 2 Thessalonians 2.2:
'It cannot be seriously disputed that "is present" is the natural sense of ἐνέστηκεν.'
Andrew
Perhaps "natural sense" is something akin to prototypical but no one is disputing the prototypical meaning of ἐνέστηκεν. Arguments that claim ἐνέστηκεν always means present vs. immanent don't hold up because they are circular. The samples which are ambiguous are assumed to be examples of present which ignores the fact that in a number of places immanent is the reading adopted by competent scholars (e.g. "immanent" Conzelman on 1Cor 7:26, see A.Thiselton p575, Robertson - Plummer ICC p.152, "very near but not yet present" cf. 2 Thes. 2.2).

RE: ἐνέστηκεν in 1Cor 7:26; A.Thiselton (1Cor 7:26 p575) suggests that the ambiguity between present and immanent reflects a tension also found in the eschatology of the synoptic gospels. The attempt to remove the ambiguity is counter productive. Semantic ambiguity is not the enemy of exegesis.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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