Gal. 4:13-14

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Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

bewell wrote:
Andrew Chapman wrote:

...if καί were epexegetical as you have it, then it would have to be:

οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου·

'...even your temptation in my flesh'.
Andrew:

I'm unclear what "even" would mean. I was thinking more of "namely." Could you clarify in terms of meaning? Perhaps with another example of such a usage, be it NT or hypothetical.
Sorry, Andrew. I was in a rush with the question above. On further reflection, I get it. Thanks!
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Gal 4:13-14 With Lachmann's punctuation.

οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου· οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.

In diagram by Jonathan Robie:

Code: Select all

[ οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι 
    [ διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ], 
   καὶ 
    [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου· 
       [ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
       [ ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
    ]
]
For the sake of focus, if we take exploration of Lachmann’s full stop after ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου· as a given for this particular study; then, for the purposes of a close literal translation of the Greek that preserves a sense of the syntactical/grammatical difficulties, this is my current take (for which I’m indebted entirely to Andrew):

You did me no wrong. You remember that it was because of weakness of the flesh that I proclaimed the gospel to you originally, and [you remember] your temptation in my flesh. You neither despised [me] nor rejected [me], but as an angel of God, you received me, even as Christ Jesus.

Grammatical/syntactical advantages of Lachmann’s sentence break are: 1) “temptation” is not the illogical, awkward object of “despised”, and 2) “temptation” is not a “pendant accusative”, which, by definition, is syntactically awkward.

Grammatical/syntactical problems are: 1) “despised” is abrupt as the start of a new sentence. 2) There is a long delay before the object of despised, “me,” appears.

Reply concerning abruptness: Given the emotionally sensitive nature of this topic – Paul’s own weak flesh and the risk of personal rejection at the center of a profoundly intense spiritual recollection--and given the difficulty of saying the words “my” and “me” in such a context (which is something I personally can relate to), and given what we know about Paul’s emotional makeup, Paul is in a very vulnerable place here. What if we see abruptness as a sign that Paul is deeply moved emotionally at this point in the dictation, moved to tears perhaps, to fear and trembling perhaps? Then perhaps the abrupt halt after “my,” and a delay before saying “me” might be more forgivable. The reader/listener has to be patient in such situations.

Further, regarding this comment by Andrew: "I am not convinced that με can be the object of all three verbs as you have it in your translation"

Reply: According to the Expositer's Greek New Testament, quoted above in a slightly different translation , the real object of ἐξουθενήσατε or ἐξεπτύσατε is με which follows ἐδέξασθε.

Concerning this comment/question from Jonathan::

τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν is explained by ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, I take that as the temptation to despise him or reject him because of whatever was going on in his body. They didn't give into that temptation (οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε), but ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.

Is that how you are reading it?

Reply: I am well aware that that is the current scholarly consensus regarding this text. By de-coupling "temptation" from "despise" with a sentence break, that interpretation is potentially called into question.

So that's how I see it now. Comments welcome.

Greg
Last edited by Gregory Hartzler-Miller on June 10th, 2015, 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Jonathan Robie »

If we keep this punctuation, and your interpretation, I think we have to diagram the sentence differently.
You did me no wrong. You remember that it was because of weakness of the flesh that I proclaimed the gospel to you originally, and [you remember] your temptation in my flesh. You neither despised [me] nor rejected [me], but as an angel of God, you received me, even as Christ Jesus.
I think that's more like this:

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε. ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι 
   [ 
     [ διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ], 
     καὶ 
     [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
   ]
]
[
   [ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
   ἀλλὰ
   [ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
]
Compare that to this (corrected) version of my current understanding:

Code: Select all

[ οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι 
    [ διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ], 
   καὶ 
    [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου,
       [ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
       [ ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
    ]
]
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Joined: May 23rd, 2015, 10:09 pm

Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Notice:

My two posts above, here on p. 3, do not take into account the comments on p. 2. I did not know there was a page 2 at the time I wrote them.

Since posting, I read page 2 of this thread with great interest. This is a great discussion, and I continue to be deeply grateful.

Jonathan: Thanks for the revision of the diagram!

Greg
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Lange wrote:Gal 4:14. With the reading πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν it appears best to set a period after ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, and to connect the words with οἴδατε Gal 4:13=you know how you, through my bodily infirmity, and the hampering of my evangelical activity in consequence of it, were put on proof=experienced the temptation to think unfavorably of me. Unquestionably the connection is somewhat difficult. But plainly the connection with what follows is wholly inadmissible, although MEYER accepts it=you have not despised your trial in my flesh. But what is meant by despising the trial, &c.? Who could understand it at all? MEYER himself has to alter the expression somewhat, so as to mean : contemptuously repel. And besides what would be signified by the climatic expression with two words: ἐξουθενήσατε and ἐξεπτύσατε. This, however, manifestly constitutes the antithesis to the strong affirmative expression ἀλλ̓ ὡς ἅγγελον κ. τ. λ. The one as well as the other therefore refers to himself. He praises this in them, that they did not reject and even spit out him, as there was room to apprehend, but—the exact opposite—received him as an angel, nay, as Christ.
That's a great dialog, and I am quite impressed by Lange's confidence in spite of being clearly outnumbered. Thanks, Jonathan, for finding and sharing that.
Andrew Chapman
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Jonathan, taking you up on your diagrams, I don't yet understand why you have οἴδατε extending so far. First, with Lachmann's punctuation:

οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου· οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.

and with Burton's take on how Lachmann was reading it, with τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν as an object of οἴδατε, then it seems to me that we would have this (I haven't done any diagramming before, so don't know if I am keeping to the conventions, but as best as I know how):

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ 
   [ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ],
   καὶ
   [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
[ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
ἀλλὰ
[ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
The ὅτι object clause seems to me to be parallel to τὸν πειρασμὸν, and I can't see why οἴδατε should extend past the full stop.

Andrew
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Andrew Chapman wrote: I can't see why οἴδατε should extend past the full stop.
Gal 4:13-14 οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου· οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.

Lachmann's Greek has a high dot ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου· Should οἴδατε extend past a high dot?

Also, for comparison, Lachmann's parallel Latin text has a period in that place.

et temptationem uestram in carne mea.
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Andrew Chapman wrote:Lachmann, Novum Testamentum, 1850. Downloadable from: http://dbooks.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/books/P ... 082822.pdf Galatians 4.13-4 is at page 448, Vol. 2 (Acts-Revelation)
My computer just gets blank pages on the PDF linked above. So I've been accessing Novum Testamentum graece et latine Carolus Lachmannus recensuit, Volume 2, 1850,here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=fGjHQ ... &q&f=false

The Greek is on the top of each page and the Latin is on the bottom.
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

In my limited experience focusing on NT grammar and syntax, i don't recall seeing a sentence break generate dialog like the one we've seen in the commentaries on this text. Are there comparable examples?
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Andrew Chapman wrote:(I haven't done any diagramming before, so don't know if I am keeping to the conventions, but as best as I know how):

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ 
   [ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ],
   καὶ
   [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
[ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
ἀλλὰ
[ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
This is my own idiosyncratic approach to diagramming, but you are very close. I would add a few brackets thus:

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ 
   [ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ],
   καὶ
   [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
]
[
  [ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
  ἀλλὰ
  [ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
]
Andrew Chapman wrote:The ὅτι object clause seems to me to be parallel to τὸν πειρασμὸν, and I can't see why οἴδατε should extend past the full stop.
Sure, that makes sense. And if I want it to extend beyond that, I need to repunctuate it, not just cut and paste existing punctuation. I will try to try to keep that in mind.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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