2 Timothy 2:11-13

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chuckbumgardner
Posts: 4
Joined: November 29th, 2014, 1:13 am

2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by chuckbumgardner »

πιστὸς ὁ λόγος·
εἰ γὰρ συναπεθάνομεν, καὶ συζήσομεν·
εἰ ὑπομένομεν, καὶ συμβασιλεύσομεν·
εἰ ἀρνησόμεθα, κἀκεῖνος ἀρνήσεται ἡμᾶς·
εἰ ἀπιστοῦμεν, ἐκεῖνος πιστὸς μένει, ἀρνήσασθαι γὰρ ἑαυτὸν οὐ δύναται. (2Ti 2:11-13)

Hello, all,

I'm looking for parallels to the tense progression found in the apodoses of this passage: aorist (συναπεθάνομεν), present (ὑπομένομεν), future (ἀρνησόμεθα) (and a second present (ἀπιστοῦμεν) in the progression would be a bonus!), and the closer to this passage, the better (e.g., if the progression were found in consecutive conditional statements, or if the overall structure were rather formal, as seems to be case here). I seem to recall coming across that sort of progression somewhere before, but if I actually did, I can't bring it to mind! Any ideas?

Many thanks in advance.

Chuck
chuckbumgardner
Posts: 4
Joined: November 29th, 2014, 1:13 am

Re: 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by chuckbumgardner »

(Correction: the verbs are in the protases, not the apodoses. Always get those two mixed for some reason.)
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

I am not so sure that this is intended as a progression, as a series of conditional clauses which rhetorically express the concept much more effectively than bare statements of fact.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
chuckbumgardner
Posts: 4
Joined: November 29th, 2014, 1:13 am

Re: 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by chuckbumgardner »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:I am not so sure that this is intended as a progression, as a series of conditional clauses which rhetorically express the concept much more effectively than bare statements of fact.
I certainly agree that the way this text is structured provides a rhetorical expressiveness that is more effective than a bare statement of fact. All the same, while one larger "concept" may encompass all four conditional statements, there are clearly several distinct (though related) ideas expressed seriatim; and since the aorist can represent a past action, the aorist-present-future tenses strike me as (we might say) chronologically progressive in their import: something that happened, something that happens, and something that is yet to happen. I'd still be interested in exploring other examples of texts that have a similar aorist-present-future structure. (I do find it interesting that the future in a conditional statement [v. 12b] appears to be uncommon, and suggests that a progression -- at least a rhetorical one! -- is indeed in view in the first three statements.)
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Aorist-present-future-present. Not seeing it. You have rhetorically balanced conditional clauses, easy to memorize (it is, after all, a "saying," λόγος), and what may be something a little different in that last line, maybe an addition on Paul's part, maybe a a re-write to make the point, but a progression based just on the tenses? Again, not seeing it.What throws it off for me is that last line.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1141
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Aorist-present-future-present. Not seeing it. You have rhetorically balanced conditional clauses, easy to memorize (it is, after all, a "saying," λόγος), and what may be something a little different in that last line, maybe an addition on Paul's part, maybe a a re-write to make the point, but a progression based just on the tenses? Again, not seeing it.What throws it off for me is that last line.
Not seeing it either. Never the less, I set up a search for:

εἰ + (~2 words) verb Aorist (~10 words) εἰ + (~2 words) verb present (~10 words) εἰ + (~2 words) verb future (~10 words) εἰ + (~2 words) verb present (~10 words)

Only one hit, 2 Timothy 2:11-13, then I cut off one verb at the end, still only one hit. Cut off last two verbs got one extra hit.

1Tim. 5:10 ἐν ἔργοις καλοῖς μαρτυρουμένη, εἰ ἐτεκνοτρόφησεν, εἰ ἐξενοδόχησεν, εἰ ἁγίων πόδας ἔνιψεν, εἰ θλιβομένοις ἐπήρκεσεν, εἰ παντὶ ἔργῳ ἀγαθῷ ἐπηκολούθησεν.

Increased the distance to four words: εἰ + (~4 words) verb X, which didn't change the results for three verb or four verb patterns. With two verbs had one extra spurious hit.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
chuckbumgardner
Posts: 4
Joined: November 29th, 2014, 1:13 am

Re: 2 Timothy 2:11-13

Post by chuckbumgardner »

Thanks, Stirling. I assume that was a search limited to the NT?

Thanks for the interaction, Barry. I'm trying to think of the entire text progressively, not holistically. So,
..(a) first a hearer / reader would encounter an aorist of ἀποθνῄσκω, and if he knew much of Paul's teaching at all, he would connect it with something that had already happened: his conversion, the point at time when he was identified with the death of Christ (Rom 8:6); that's all a "done deal" (though with implications in the present).
..(b) next a hearer / reader would encounter a present of ὑπομένω, and presumably would see that as something that needed to be continued on in.
..(c) next a hearer / reader would encounter a future of ἀρνέομαι. How would he understand that? That's what I'm trying to dig into, in order to better understand how ἀρνέομαι relates to ἀπιστέω in v. 13a. I was wondering if there was a similar progression evident in other instances of early Christian literature.

Fee describes the saying of 2:11b-13 thus: "all four lines cohere as an exposition of ‘the salvation that comes through Christ Jesus and brings eternal glory' [v. 10]" (1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, 251). I think there is some merit to his suggestion, and the almost certain identification of v. 11b with conversion and/or baptism is making me look for a chronological progression. Knight apparently had the same sort of idea: "The schematic and chronological progress within the saying presents itself in a movement from past (aorist, συναποθνῄσκω) to present (ὑπομένομεν) to future (ἀρνησόμεθα) and then back to a strongly contrasting and self-consciously chosen present." (The Faithful Sayings in the Pastoral Letters, 115). Similarly, Andrew Lau (Manifest in Flesh: The Epiphany Christology of the Pastoral Epistles, 138): "the movement of the hymn, as indicated by the tenses of the verbs, points to a chronological progression." Saying so doesn't make it so, but that's the point I wanted to explore.
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