I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Wes Wood »

1Th. 2:6 οὔτε ζητοῦντες ἐξ ἀνθρώπων δόξαν οὔτε ἀφ᾿ ὑμῶν οὔτε ἀπ᾿ ἄλλων,
1Th. 2:7 δυνάμενοι ἐν βάρει εἶναι ὡς Χριστοῦ ἀπόστολοι. ἀλλ᾿ ἐγενήθημεν νήπιοι ἐν μέσῳ ὑμῶν, ὡς ἐὰν τροφὸς θάλπῃ τὰ ἑαυτῆς τέκνα,

I noticed that several translations express this text differently than I understand it. Because of this, I am concerned that I am missing some of the finer nuances of the Greek. Is this the case?
1 Th. 2:6 Not seeking glory from men, neither from you or others,
1 Th. 2:7 being able in weight [authority?] to be as the apostles of Christ. But we became child-like/children among you, like a nurse caring for her own children.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I realise that translation without elaboration sometimes doesn't capture one's full appreciation of a text. Being as that may be, you seem to have lost the nuance of the subjunctive in the last phrase.

Here are a few questions to prompt your thinking:
  • What would be the ordinary verb(s) be that would usually be thought of as relating a τροφός to (some other woman's) τέκνα?
  • What would be the tone of the verse be if verbs describing the emotionally uninvolved function(s) of a τροφός were to have been used?
  • How does that tone differ from what is written here? How do the feeling contrast?
And following from those a few more specifically about the mood:
  • What mood would have been used if the verbs of the normally occurring activities of a τροφός were written instead?
  • How does the ἐὰν "if ever it were the case that" spark your imagination?
Now, let's set your answers to those questions to music:
  • On the first and second (low pitch) strings on your Fender, with the left hand on the piano, the base and snare drums or just the rhythmic tapping of your foot as you hold the trumpet, set up the repetitive activities that are the usual activities a τροφός does. The background activities to the key one that Paul is presenting to us.
  • Think about the feelings that a nursing mother has to her own children, the caressing, the smiles, the focus of attention, and the other things that you are familiar with. In your own style compose a melody on the other four strings, the right hand on the piano, the various other drums, the trumpet that you can associate the θάλπειν with, and which allows you to express both the general feelings and resulting actions that a τροφὸς would feel and do as she would θάλπῃ τὰ ἑαυτῆς τέκνα.
The nuance of the subjunctive is in the beauty and subtlety of the melody that you are playing. 8-)
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
timothy_p_mcmahon
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Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:47 pm

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

In the underlined portion, I think there are a few issues:

• βαρος here carries not the sense of ‘weight’ but, what a heavy object can often be, a ‘burden.’

• δυνασθαι here denotes right rather than ability. (Reminds me of the hypercorrective schoolmarm who, when the student asks, “Can I go to the bathroom? responds, “I presume you can, but what you mean to ask is if you may.”)

• the predicate of ειναι is not ὡς Χριστοῦ ἀπόστολοι but ἐν βάρει.

“although we as Christ’s apostles had the right to be burdensome, we became as children among you”
Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Wes Wood »

You caught me just before bed, so I won't be able to respond in full. I agree without reservation that I have failed to capture my understanding of the last bit. I don't know that I have one. Without elaborating much now, how I would treat the subjunctive there depends in large part on what comparison is being made across the stretch of verses. (Or rather, what comparison I think is being made.) I would say my problem begins with the word I have rendered, among other things, "children." I would be tempted to say that the author is stating that he was powerless (helpless) to resist the urge to minister to the needs of the Thessalonians in the same manner a mother with relevant skills would be unable to do anything but care for her own children. But these are just my off the cuff remarks and are nothing more than musings at the moment. Don't judge them too harshly. Also, they don't take into account the other major issue with that stretch of text that would affect my interpretation. I will cut myself off here before I say another ignorant thing. I'll pick up tomorrow morning, and give your response greater consideration. Until then. Thanks for responding.

P.S. I loved your analogy. I give it a two, three, four on the second fret. I leave it to you to determine on which strings each goes and why I have chosen the fingers that I have.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Wes Wood »

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:In the underlined portion, I think there are a few issues:

• βαρος here carries not the sense of ‘weight’ but, what a heavy object can often be, a ‘burden.’

• δυνασθαι here denotes right rather than ability. (Reminds me of the hypercorrective schoolmarm who, when the student asks, “Can I go to the bathroom? responds, “I presume you can, but what you mean to ask is if you may.”)

• the predicate of ειναι is not ὡς Χριστοῦ ἀπόστολοι but ἐν βάρει.

“although we as Christ’s apostles had the right to be burdensome, we became as children among you”
Thank you for responding. My translation doesn't convey my understanding of the text all that well. I hoped that adding [authority] would make my understanding more clear. This is a better rendering: Even though we have the same amount of authority as the apostles of Christ, we became...

I could certainly understand βαρος and δυνασθαι in the same way that (I think) you do, but that doesn't seem to cohere (caution: linguistic usage not intended :lol: ) with what follows after.

I think this phrase in Plutarch captures my thoughts perfectly. Note the underlined portion:
τῆς δὲ πόλεως πειρωμένης τῶν ἄλλων στρατηγῶν εἰς τὸν πόλεμον καὶ ῥητόρων, ὡς δ᾽ οὐδεὶς βάρος ἔχων ἰσόρροπον οὐδ᾽ ἀξίωμα πρὸς τοσαύτην ἐχέγγυον ἡγεμονίαν ἐφαίνετο,

Here is my translation of this passage. I don't presume that my translation is correct, though:
But while the city was making trial of other soldiers and orators for the war, it seemed that no one had equal authority nor reputation for such trustworthy leadership as this.

What do you think?
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Wes Wood »

Also, it is worth mentioning that I had only seen Stephen's response before I began writing my first reply. Sorry for the resulting confusion. :oops:
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:I agree without reservation that I have failed to capture my understanding of the last bit. I don't know that I have one. Without elaborating much now, how I would treat the subjunctive there depends in large part on what comparison is being made across the stretch of verses. (Or rather, what comparison I think is being made.) I would say my problem begins with the word I have rendered, among other things, "children." I would be tempted to say that the author is stating that he was powerless (helpless) to resist the urge to minister to the needs of the Thessalonians in the same manner a mother with relevant skills would be unable to do anything but care for her own children.
It has been pointed out to me that what I have elaborated at length about the subjunctive, may because of the attention that I've given it, seem like I think it is the most important thing in the passage. I suppose that giving a fuller discussion of other features of the phrase might help to balance the previous comments I made about the subjunctive, by contextualising them. Actually the choice of mood for θάλπειν is just one step in a much larger process. Let's look at a few more things then:
  1. We know from our general experience of life what (wet-)nurse does for a baby. She is employed by somebody to give day-to-day nourishment and care for an infant.
  2. We are then asked to consider the remarkable situation, of the extra element that along with the usual things, she also θάλπει τὰ ἑαυτῆς τέκνα. That action is extra to the ordinary collocation of verbs with τρόφος, so it affects the mood of the verb.
  3. The protasis that we have here, does not have its apodosis explicitly written out. We are left to imply for ourselves the smiles, hugs and eye-to-eye contact that is implied. Conditionals are one of the areas of thinner ice in the lake of my Greek, but this seems to be a hybrid form, with the verb that I would expect in the apodosis being used in the protasis, while retaining the disvourse marker of the protasis. We are left to imply what the verb(s) of the apodosis would have been, and what the structure of the apodosis would be. I'm not sure if that is sloppy or skillful, but it works.
  4. The phrase (both the explicit and the implied) about the nurse is then related to the rest of the verse by using the ὡς. What is the ὡς? It marks that the whole verbal phrase is now functioning in the wider context as an adverb. In this case, we could think of the phrase as an adverb of manner.
  5. Doing a word-for-word translation of the English "as" + "if" give an approximation of what is in the Greek, but actually those two do not run together in the same breath in Greek, as they do in English. Perhaps, spelling it out, we could say, "in the way a nurse cherishes children, if they are in fact her own children."
How about in English? Do we add a modal verb, such as "might" or "may" to a verb that is not usually collocated with a noun? No, generally not. "The young man's face was shaved as if a college professor was marking a term paper." (Red marks everywhere) vs. "He put forward his argument to the meeting as if a tiger-mum was driving a semi.". There is and added step in the metaphor (or simile - I get those two confused). It is usual for a college professor to put red marks everywhere on the page, but a tiger-mum would ordinarily push her way through traffic in an SUV. In English, we don't need the added prompting to be told that we are about to imagine something out of the ordinary. I think your English is correct English idiom, but I was wondering whether you fudged that, or recognised the Greek as good Greek, then made good English?

In a translation check it is easier to fudge, but you are asking for an understanding check. I'm sorry if I've been misleading in the first post.
P.S. I loved your analogy. I give it a two, three, four on the second fret. I leave it to you to determine on which strings each goes and why I have chosen the fingers that I have.
I'd have to play around and hear the various posibilities.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: I Thessalonians 2:7 Understanding Check

Post by Wes Wood »

1Th. 2:6 οὔτε ζητοῦντες ἐξ ἀνθρώπων δόξαν οὔτε ἀφ᾿ ὑμῶν οὔτε ἀπ᾿ ἄλλων,
1Th. 2:7 δυνάμενοι ἐν βάρει εἶναι ὡς Χριστοῦ ἀπόστολοι. ἀλλ᾿ ἐγενήθημεν νήπιοι ἐν μέσῳ ὑμῶν, ὡς ἐὰν τροφὸς θάλπῃ τὰ ἑαυτῆς τέκνα,
1Th. 2:8 οὕτως ὁμειρόμενοι ὑμῶν εὐδοκοῦμεν μεταδοῦναι ὑμῖν οὐ μόνον τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ θεοῦ ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰς ἑαυτῶν ψυχάς, διότι ἀγαπητοὶ ἡμῖν ἐγενήθητε.
1Th. 2:9 Μνημονεύετε γάρ, ἀδελφοί, τὸν κόπον ἡμῶν καὶ τὸν μόχθον· νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας ἐργαζόμενοι πρὸς τὸ μὴ ἐπιβαρῆσαί τινα ὑμῶν ἐκηρύξαμεν εἰς ὑμᾶς τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τοῦ θεοῦ.
1Th. 2:10 ὑμεῖς μάρτυρες καὶ ὁ θεός, ὡς ὁσίως καὶ δικαίως καὶ ἀμέμπτως ὑμῖν τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ἐγενήθημεν,
1Th. 2:11 καθάπερ οἴδατε, ὡς ἕνα ἕκαστον ὑμῶν ὡς πατὴρ τέκνα ἑαυτοῦ
1Th. 2:12 παρακαλοῦντες ὑμᾶς καὶ παραμυθούμενοι καὶ μαρτυρόμενοι εἰς τὸ περιπατεῖν ὑμᾶς ἀξίως τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ καλοῦντος ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ βασιλείαν καὶ δόξαν.

2:6 "We sought esteem from no one, not from you or anyone else,
2:7 even though we have the same amount of authority as the apostles of Christ*. But we became __[purposefully ignoring]__ while we were with you and we cared for your every need like a nursing mother doting over her own children.
2:8 While we were longing for you in this way, we were happy to entrust you with the gospel of God and our very lives, because you became so precious to us.
2:9 For you all remember that we preached the gospel of God to you while we labored and slaved away all day and all night so that we wouldn't be a burden to any of you.
2:10 Both you and God can testify to this: we were holy, just, and beyond reproach to all of you who believed the gospel.
2:11 Also, you know that we treated each one of you as a father treats his children
2:12 encouraging, imploring, and insisting that you live your lives in a manner worthy of the God who called you to his kingdom and glory."


I believe this conveys my understanding of the text as accurately as possible at the sentence level with a great degree of freedom. I believe the issues that go beyond the surface level are the things that I am struggling with most. 1) Why is the concept of weight/burden mentioned two different places (v. 7 and 9)? Is it referring to two distinct things, the same thing, or is it purposefully ambiguous? 2) Is the phrase concerning the nursing mother meant to contrast with v. 6 or the early part of v. 7? There are more things I could write, but I will stop here :oops:.


*[Forgive the theological concerns and implications of this addendum, please. I am not asking anyone to interact with these items. I am offering them as an attempt to clarify what I am thinking--and anyone can see that I am struggling to express myself: 1) Does this usage of the word "apostles" refer to an office? 2) Does Paul consider himself to be an apostle at this point? 3) Is it significant that Paul does not directly name himself as an apostle in this letter? 4) Is this omission an indication that this is the earliest of Paul's letters?]
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
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