τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

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Jean Putmans
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Re: τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Post by Jean Putmans »

to my remark

The Mss 544 and 2680 are the only ones I found, that have συ instead of σοι.

should be added: , in Mk 1:24, 5:7, Mt 8:29, John 2:4.

In Luke these mss are not transcribed in the INTF.
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
Jean Putmans
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Re: τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Post by Jean Putmans »

I have done some further searching in the INTF-Collations.
Checking all Mss with at least two NT-Verses with the expression τι εμοι/ημιν και σοι/συ; from this list I selected those mss that had at least two verses with this expression. This list was checked for other instances with “switching” between συ/σοι.

Supposing the mss that have, besides the expressions, no other instances with this switching, are to be considered thrustfull in respect of the copying of σοι/συ, I cellected these.

The numbers between (…) are the number of Verses in the Ms with συ and/or σοι.
Between […] : number of expressions τι εμοι/ημιν και συ (instead of …και σοι).

032 (173) [3]
855 (38) [2]
979 (40) [2]
1029 (88) [2]
1047 (99) [3]
1128 (35) [2]
1574 (83) [3]
544 (223) [4]
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
Jean Putmans
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Re: τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Post by Jean Putmans »

not “thrustfull” but “ trustful/trustworthy”!

The ancient Greeks did better, even without spell-checker (well they had a human one, called corrector).
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
S Walch
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Re: τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Post by S Walch »

Jean Putmans wrote: August 19th, 2023, 1:49 pmIn Luke these mss are not transcribed in the INTF.
I've checked the two Lucan verses in 544 for you (Luke 4:34 and 8:28), and can confirm that in these verses, 544 has συ and not σοι. I double checked in the GoMark, and also confirmed (as per your previous remark) the copyist hasn't changed any other instance of σοι to συ in the 24 occurrences (544 doesn't include Mark 9:44-46). Therefore 544 is unanimous in having the nominative συ in every instance of the phrase in question.

(A caveat to the above though: in Matt 8:29, where συ/σοι appears is very difficult to see clearly on images, and there's room to have οι and not just υ, therefore it is possible this is not an instance of συ. The transcription does include a dot under the υ indicating it's not entirely clear.)

Explanation? Well according to a discussion of this very variant (see article on academia), despite wide attestation for it in Mark 1:24, the reading is "obviously wrong" (manifestement fautive), as the dative is what is required, with the nominative making no sense.

It's a phrase from the Tanakh (מַה־לִּי וָלָךְ/וְלָכֶם = sing/plur), with attestation in the LXX (Judges 11:12, 2 Sam 16:10, 19:23; 1 Kings 17:18; 2 Kings 3:13; 2 Chron 35:21) from which it has come into the NT, hence it's quite apparent that the dative is what's meant. The instances of συ are likely an early misspelling which some copyists have copied without question, with some (min. 544 perhaps) harmonising in each instance of the phrase.
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Re: τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Post by Jean Putmans »

Thanks for the answers, and for the explanation.

In all cases, the expression is followed by a Vocative. Could attraction (Smyth § 926) be an aspect? Could the scribe be tempted, to adapt the case from Dative (fitting to the expression) to the Nominative, fitting to the Vocative.
Jean Putmans
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S Walch
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Re: τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Post by S Walch »

Well I could see the vocatives following possibly having some sort of affect on the copyist; attraction as per what Smith is on about is nothing related however.
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