You go first! After you!

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Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

You go first! After you!

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 18th, 2017, 1:28 am

Matthew 21:9 wrote:οἱ προάγοντες αὐτὸν καὶ οἱ ἀκολουθοῦντες
Matthew 8:22 et passim wrote:Ἀκολούθει μοι.
How would, "Walk in front of me" / "I'll follow you" be expressed? Would "πρόαγέ με" work? Is there a more idiomatic way to express that?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Paul-Nitz
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Location: Lilongwe, Malawi

Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Paul-Nitz » May 18th, 2017, 11:42 am

ὀδήγησον με. ἀκολουθήσω σοι.
I'll let you decide if ἀκολουθήσω is Future Indicative or Aorist Subjunctive.
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 18th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 11:42 am
ὀδήγησον με. ἀκολουθήσω σοι.
I'll let you decide if ἀκολουθήσω is Future Indicative or Aorist Subjunctive.
If an Ἄφες was placed before it, then the choice would be more straightforward.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Paul-Nitz
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Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:19 am
Location: Lilongwe, Malawi

Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Paul-Nitz » May 19th, 2017, 8:06 am

"Let me that I should follow you." Sounds like good Malawian English.

Off topic, but I've been meaning to ask this. In Chichewa, the subjunctive is used in a volitive way (if that's the right term) is in all persons.

I should go - ndipite (indicative ndipita).
You should go - mupite (mupita).
He should go - apite (apita)

In Greek, I understood that this only works in the first person.
πορευθω Let me go, I should go.
πορεύθωμεν Let us go, We should go.

So, in comparing the two languages, I always thought that the volitive / hortatory sort of idea was only possible in the 1st person (Maybe because a 1st person imperative form is lacking).

But then somewhere in my reading of the NT, I thought I ran across an third person subjunctive that gave the idea of "he should go." Can't remember where.

Can πορευθῇ (Aor, Subj) mean "he should go"? I think 3rd Person Imperative would be a more common way to say it, but is it possible with a subjunctive?
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3313
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 19th, 2017, 11:39 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 8:06 am
"Let me that I should follow you." Sounds like good Malawian English.
Ἄφες in this usage, is the forerunner of the Modern Greek particle ας.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 19th, 2017, 12:39 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 8:06 am
But then somewhere in my reading of the NT, I thought I ran across an third person subjunctive that gave the idea of "he should go." Can't remember where.

Can πορευθῇ (Aor, Subj) mean "he should go"? I think 3rd Person Imperative would be a more common way to say it, but is it possible with a subjunctive?
Could you explain what "should" means here? Is it like "we / you / he / she / it ought to", "I want we / you / he / she / it to" or "it would be good if we / you / he / she / it were to"?

I don't know if it is on track or not, but you might consider these examples of where a ἵνα clause has nothing preceding it syntactically:
John 1:22 wrote:Εἶπον οὖν αὐτῷ, Τίς εἶ; Ἵνα ἀπόκρισιν δῶμεν τοῖς πέμψασιν ἡμᾶς. Τί λέγεις περὶ σεαυτοῦ;
"We ought to give an answer to ..."
Luke 18:41 wrote:λέγων, Τί σοι θέλεις ποιήσω; Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν, Κύριε, ἵνα ἀναβλέψω.
"It would be good if I could see."
Matthew 9:6 (cf. Mark 2:10 and Luke 5:24) wrote:Ἵνα δὲ εἰδῆτε, ὅτι ἐξουσίαν ἔχει ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἀφιέναι ἁμαρτίας — τότε λέγει τῷ παραλυτικῷ — Ἐγερθεὶς ἆρόν σου τὴν κλίνην, καὶ ὕπαγε εἰς τὸν οἶκόν σου.
"I want you (pl.) to know ..."
John 1:31 wrote:Κἀγὼ οὐκ ᾔδειν αὐτόν· ἀλλ’ ἵνα φανερωθῇ τῷ Ἰσραήλ, διὰ τοῦτο ἦλθον ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ ὕδατι βαπτίζων.
There doesn't seem to be a great deal of causal relationship between the two phrases in:
John 6:50 wrote:Οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἄρτος ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβαίνων, ἵνα τις ἐξ αὐτοῦ φάγῃ καὶ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ.
Reading the following may be of interest too:
Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής, να2 wrote:II. εισάγει προτάσεις φαινομενικά κύριες· η σημασία του ποικίλλει: 1. δηλώνει θέληση, επιθυμία, γνώμη κτλ. ανάλογα με τα συμφραζόμενα: ~ σας δούμε κι από το σπίτι. Mια στιγμή, ~ βάλω μια ποδιά κι έρχομαι. ~ δούμε αν θα τα καταφέρουν. ~ είναι το πολύ είκοσι χρονών, όχι παραπάνω. ~ πήγαινες μια στιγμή να ψωνίσεις! || [ná] ~ σου πω, μια στιγμή. || σε διάλογο: Mας ακούει ο κόσμος. - Δεν πάει ~ μας ακούει. Ποιος θα μου δανείσει; -~ σου δανείσω εγώ. || με οριστική παρατατικού: ~ φαινόταν από καμιά μεριά! 2. για να εκφραστεί ευχή, απευχή ή κατά ρα· (βλ. και μακάρι): Kαλώς ~ ΄ρθείτε. ~ ζήσετε! ~ πάρει η οργή. Kακό χρόνο ~ ΄χει. ~ μη σώσει κι έρθει. Ο Θεός ~ δώσει / ~ μας φυλάει. Πες μου ~ χαρείς. || Πες μου την αλήθεια· έτσι ~ χαρείς ό,τι αγαπάς. Mπα, που ~ φας τη γλώσσα σου. A, που ~ χαθείς. || με οριστική παρατατικού: ~ μπορούσα να σε βοηθήσω, μακάρι να μπορούσα. Στερνή μου γνώση ~ σ΄ είχα πρώτα. ~ ξέρατε πόσο σας αγαπά! || σε όρκο: ~ μη σώσω. ~ μη χαρώ το φως μου. (~) μη σώσει κι έρθει. || σε εκφράσεις που περιέχουν απειλή: (~) μη σε πιάσω στα χέρια μου. 3. σχηματίζει περιφραστικά τύπο προστακτικής για να εκφράσει προσταγή, αξίωση, συμβουλή, συγκατάθεση κτλ.: ~ προσέχεις τα λόγια σου, πρόσεχε τα λόγια σου. Ο καθένας ~ κοιτάζει τη δουλειά του. ~ πηγαίνετε από το πεζοδρόμιο. ~ μη στενοχωριέσαι για μας. (~) μην κουνηθεί κανείς από τη θέση του. (~) μη σ΄ ακούσω άλλη φορά να γκρινιάζεις. || σε φράσεις: ~ μην τα πολυλογού με. ~ μη σας ζαλίζω. ~ μη σας χασομερώ. ~ μη σε ξαναδώ. ~ μου το θυμάστε. ~ δεις. Kάποτε, ~ το θυμάστε, θα τον χρειαστούμε. Kάποια μέρα, ~ δεις, που θα αναγνωριστεί η αξία του. || προτρεπτικά με τα για 2, άντε, έλα, εμπρός: Για ~ δοκιμάσω κι εγώ. Έλα ~ δούμε τη δουλειά σου. || για αγανάκτηση, οργή: A! για ~ σου πω. || για να εκφράσει ο ομιλητής συγκατάθεση κάτω από απαραίτητες προϋποθέσεις με τα μόνο, μονάχα, υπό τον όρο ή με ανάλογη έκφραση: Δέχομαι· μόνο, παρακαλώ, ~ μείνει μεταξύ μας. Συμφώνησε με τον όρο ~
NB. If anybody wants to use software to translate that, you will need to actually substitute the ~ with να, because it is part of the grammatical structure.

Phrases like Ο καθένας να κοιτάζει τη δουλειά του. "Everybody should pay attention to his work." are like what you want to find in the New Testament.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Shirley Rollinson
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Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Shirley Rollinson » May 24th, 2017, 12:25 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
May 18th, 2017, 1:28 am
Matthew 21:9 wrote:οἱ προάγοντες αὐτὸν καὶ οἱ ἀκολουθοῦντες
Matthew 8:22 et passim wrote:Ἀκολούθει μοι.
How would, "Walk in front of me" / "I'll follow you" be expressed? Would "πρόαγέ με" work? Is there a more idiomatic way to express that?
πρόαγέ feels to me like a transitive verb ("lead me")
My gut feeling is that one would use προερχομαι or προπορευομαι rather than προαγω, or just πορευου or ἐρχου and use the προ with the pronoun. In the GNT πορευου seems to be the most frequently used.
So we could have : πορευου / προπορευου / πορευθητι / προπορευθητι / ἐρχου προ (ἐ)μου

Stephen Carlson
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Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 24th, 2017, 12:30 am

Mark 16:7 ὅτι προάγει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν "because he is going ahead of you into Galilee".

It's odd that the accusative is not a Theme (moved object) but a Landmark, but so it is.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

johnanderson
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Joined: July 10th, 2017, 3:52 pm

Re: You go first! After you!

Post by johnanderson » July 10th, 2017, 4:05 pm

Paul-Nitz wrote:
May 19th, 2017, 8:06 am
But then somewhere in my reading of the NT, I thought I ran across an third person subjunctive that gave the idea of "he should go." Can't remember where.

Can πορευθῇ (Aor, Subj) mean "he should go"? I think 3rd Person Imperative would be a more common way to say it, but is it possible with a subjunctive?
3rd Person Subjunctive can also be used as a polite way to infer an Imperative. "They really should obey the law." Works with 2nd Person, also.

By the way. I'm the newest member here. Let's see if I can contribute as well as learn. :geek:
Freedom is not free.

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: You go first! After you!

Post by Barry Hofstetter » July 14th, 2017, 12:37 pm

Shirley Rollinson wrote:
May 24th, 2017, 12:25 am

πρόαγέ feels to me like a transitive verb ("lead me")
My gut feeling is that one would use προερχομαι or προπορευομαι rather than προαγω, or just πορευου or ἐρχου and use the προ with the pronoun. In the GNT πορευου seems to be the most frequently used.
So we could have : πορευου / προπορευου / πορευθητι / προπορευθητι / ἐρχου προ (ἐ)μου
προάγω, like several other compounds of ἄγω, may be used intransitively.
② intr. to move ahead or in front of, go before, lead the way, precede

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 864). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
BTW, the principal parts of ἅγω may be sung to the tune of "Good King Wenceslas." Try it:

ἄγω, ἄξω, ἤγαγον, ἥχα, ἤγμαι, ἤχθην. :lol:
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

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