Coining a phrase

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Daniel Semler
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler » November 13th, 2020, 11:23 am

Seumas Macdonald wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 6:30 am
to mean, signify: τί τοῦτο λέγει, πρὸ Πύλοιο; what does “before Pylos” mean? ARISTOPH. Eq. 1059; πῶς λέγεις; what do you mean?
Personally, I prefer the middle form for the question, πῶς fruitbowl λέγεται Ἑλληνιστί;
Thanx Seumas.
I am wondering if Ed is drawing a distinction between "what do mean ?" and "what is the name for/how do you translate ?". Though that could just be a case of more or less specificity in the chosen expression. Other notes above in response to Barry.
Seumas Macdonald wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 6:30 am
As for your main question, I would generally say that διδασκαλεῖον is preferable to σχολή, though the latter does sometimes have the sense of 'school'. And then, my sense is that Greek would generally prefer a periphrastic idiom like ἐρωτήματα ἐν διδασκαλείῳ or similar (plenty of variations would be find), rather than σχολικός. I would hear ἐρωτήματα σχολικά as something more akin to 'scholastic questions'.
I had wondered if what I said might be interpreted as something like 'scholastic questions'. So I can imagine things like

ἐρωτήματα διδασκαλείῳ
ἐρωτηματα ἐν [τῷ] διδασκαλείῳ
ἐρωτἠματα σχολῇ
ἐρωτήματα ἐν [τῇ] σχολῇ

or the verbal forms as Jason proposed

τὰ ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ ἐρωτώμενα

would all be intelligible enough for the sense I want, though σχολή might cause confusion in some places, as the desired sense is not "things asked about at leisure".

Thx
D
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Jason Hare
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Jason Hare » November 13th, 2020, 12:23 pm

Δανιήλ, χαῖρε.
Daniel Semler wrote:
November 12th, 2020, 9:30 pm
1. Is the verbal phrasing to be preferred ? Is it more Greek ? might well be and I had considered doing something similar
It's not really verbal. It's a participle, which is certainly very common. I would think that this would be a better expression. Maybe others should chime in on that, but it certainly seems better to me than using ἐρωτήματα.
Daniel Semler wrote:
November 12th, 2020, 9:30 pm
2. Is διδασκαλεῖον period appropriate to Koine ? I am not familiar with Woodhouse but I found a copy online. The dictionary appears to rely on pre-Koine period sources. I'll address my use of σχολή in a minute.
In both Greek (σχολή) and Latin (schola), the term began as the designation of the free time, easy pace, leisure that a person had that would allow him to attend lectures for the goal of learning. Later, it took on the meaning of the place. You can imagine why. "Church" ("assembly" = ἐκκλησία) used to refer to the gathering of people, and now it refers to the building where people gather. The same with συναγωγή, which originally referred to any assembly or gathering, but it eventually came to refer to the place where people gathered for prayer (in Judaism). It is natural if you say that you're going to "free time," that you would eventually call the place "free time." "I'll be at free time later if you need me."

The Koiné period, I'm sure, had a variety of styles of education. The word διδασκαλεῖον is apparently not one that was used in the literature (at least, it doesn't appear in Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich [1957] - the version that I have in print). If you're limiting yourself to only vocabulary that was used in the Koiné, then you are well within your rights to use σχολή rather than any other term.

τὰ ἐν τῇ σχολῇ ἐρωτώμενα is fine for the Koiné period. I still prefer ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ because it lacks ambiguity, but ambiguity is part of communication — and this term just wasn't used at that time (at least in the literature that we have).

Jason
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Jason Hare
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Jason Hare » November 13th, 2020, 12:27 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 11:23 am
I had wondered if what I said might be interpreted as something like 'scholastic questions'. So I can imagine things like

ἐρωτήματα διδασκαλείῳ
ἐρωτηματα ἐν [τῷ] διδασκαλείῳ
ἐρωτἠματα σχολῇ
ἐρωτήματα ἐν [τῇ] σχολῇ

or the verbal forms as Jason proposed

τὰ ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ ἐρωτώμενα

would all be intelligible enough for the sense I want, though σχολή might cause confusion in some places, as the desired sense is not "things asked about at leisure".
I'd change the label to "participial form" rather than "verbal form," since participles are more generally adjectives that have been created from verbs rather than verbs in a proper sense, but yes.

I completely agree with Seumas that λέγεται is preferable and that λέγω generally is used for "calling" someone or something by a given name or title all over the literature, including in the New Testament. Whereas ὀνομάζω is used, it isn't as frequent or as colloquial. If you're asking how to say something in Greek, πῶς _ λέγεται ἑλληνιστί is great.
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Daniel Semler
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Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler » November 13th, 2020, 1:10 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 12:23 pm
The Koiné period, I'm sure, had a variety of styles of education. The word διδασκαλεῖον is apparently not one that was used in the literature (at least, it doesn't appear in Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich [1957] - the version that I have in print). If you're limiting yourself to only vocabulary that was used in the Koiné, then you are well within your rights to use σχολή rather than any other term.

τὰ ἐν τῇ σχολῇ ἐρωτώμενα is fine for the Koiné period. I still prefer ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ because it lacks ambiguity, but ambiguity is part of communication — and this term just wasn't used at that time (at least in the literature that we have).

Jason
τὰ ἐν τῇ σχολῇ ἐρωτώμενα might be what I'll go with which will work in my notes but I'll bear in mind the issue.

Thx
D
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler » November 13th, 2020, 1:22 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 12:27 pm
I completely agree with Seumas that λέγεται is preferable and that λέγω generally is used for "calling" someone or something by a given name or title all over the literature, including in the New Testament. Whereas ὀνομάζω is used, it isn't as frequent or as colloquial. If you're asking how to say something in Greek, πῶς _ λέγεται ἑλληνιστί is great.
On λέγεις vs λέγεται we are not just switching voice active to middle/pass but also person. We are going from "how do you say" to "how is it said". (I am going to assume that we can dispense with the non-sensical reflexive "How does it say itself" :) ) I don't know enough of Koine speech practices to know which would normally be used. In English we use "how do you say" when we generally mean "how does one say" in a sense so perhaps third is better. We aren't usually asking a person for their own idiomatic practice though that is a fair question too. But this might run into register issues. In English people actually saying "How does one say ?" is certainly less common and I would think at least a somewhat elevated use. I don't know if that would translate to Koine.

I suppose "how does one say" might be produced with something like : πῶς τις ... λέγεται Ἑλληνιστί; Feel free to ignore this conjecture for the moment.

It was such a simple question when I asked it :)

Thx
D
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 14th, 2020, 9:08 am

Daniel Semler wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 1:22 pm

On λέγεις vs λέγεται we are not just switching voice active to middle/pass but also person. We are going from "how do you say" to "how is it said". (I am going to assume that we can dispense with the non-sensical reflexive "How does it say itself" :) ) I don't know enough of Koine speech practices to know which would normally be used. In English we use "how do you say" when we generally mean "how does one say" in a sense so perhaps third is better. We aren't usually asking a person for their own idiomatic practice though that is a fair question too. But this might run into register issues. In English people actually saying "How does one say ?" is certainly less common and I would think at least a somewhat elevated use. I don't know if that would translate to Koine.

I suppose "how does one say" might be produced with something like : πῶς τις ... λέγεται Ἑλληνιστί; Feel free to ignore this conjecture for the moment.

It was such a simple question when I asked it :)

Thx
D
I thought it would be fun to see how πῶς λέγεις and πῶς λέγεται are actually used in Greek literature. I was surprised to find quite a few hits. πῶς λέγεις seems always to mean not "how do you say" but "what are you saying," e.g.

ὦ μέγιστον ἐξαμαρτὼν ἐξ ὅτου ʼτράφην ἐγώ,
πῶς λέγεις; (Arist. Birds 321)

BTW, Aristophanes is considered to have written quite colloquial Greek for the 5th century. But if you want something a bit later:

Πῶς λέγεις; εἴδωλον τοῦ θεοῦ; καὶ δυνατὸν ἐξ ἡμισείας μέν τινα θεὸν εἶναι, τεθνάναι δὲ τῷ ἡμίσει; (Lucian Dia.Mort. 16.1).

I couldn't find πῶς λέγεται in the exact sense we want to use it, asking the word for something in the language, but:

τὸ δὲ καθόλου βέλτιον ἴσως ἐπισκέψασθαι καὶ διαπορῆσαι πῶς λέγεται... (Arist.Nic.Eth. 1096a)

"To make enquiry as to what it means..." which is much closer to the sense.

I don't remember seeing either phrasing in the Colloquia, but that's something I can check when I have a bit more time.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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