Future Perfect forms in LXX?
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
The questions concerning reduplicated forms of κράζω do well to call attention to the not-so-well known fact that reduplication, although it generally characterizes perfect-tense stems, is not by any means limited to perfect stems. We use presents like γι(γ)νώσκω, γί(γ)νομαι, πίπτω, etc. and aorists like ἤγαγον commonly without a second thought. I personally have found it useful -nay, salutary -- to consult Smyth §§439-448, most especially §§447-448 on reduplication in present-tense stems and second-aorist stems.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
I think some of this confusion is my fault, since I mistakenly contrasted "future perfect" with "future passive." I've now edited that post to remove this misleading statement.Alan Patterson wrote:(what is the difference in translating a Future Passive from a Future Perfect)
Ken M. Penner
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
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- Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 3:14 pm
Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
Thanks for the spade work on this, Ken. Very helpful, if a bit "crazy" (my mnemonic for κράζω).
Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
This grows more interesting as the length of this thread grows!
Who would have thought that a form as "common"! as a FutPerf would generate a thread now into its 3g page?! Thanks Ken, for digging out the TLG data. I can't access TLG from home and haven't been back on campus, but you've saved me a lot of work. I still need to think through all of it.
As for Smyth, I'm a bit puzzled, so Dr. "Carl-Smyth"
may need to take me in hand here. The discussion in 447 pertains to what I've usually called "iotat redup." which is the normal form for the present in the μι verbs, in contrast to "normal"/ε redup. used in the perf. And 448 lists only 2 verbs, ἀγω and φερω, that have a duplicated syllable at the beginning of the stem in 2Aor--but I've never thought of them as "reduplicated" forms that have the same morphology as perfects. Perhaps I've just used "reduplicated" in a narrower sense (maybe narrower than I should?).
I already noted Smyth's listing in 1955:
Maybe I'm missing some other data in Smyth somewhere or not understanding what I've cited correctly, but regardless of what may be true of other forms listed in other posts above, it sure sounds to me like Smyth is treating the reduplicated κεκ- forms of κραζω as legitimate, monolectic, futurePerfect forms of κραζω.
So what have I gotten twisted up here?

As for Smyth, I'm a bit puzzled, so Dr. "Carl-Smyth"

I already noted Smyth's listing in 1955:
Likewise on p. 703 in Smyth's Verb List he shows κραζω with a futurePerfect form κεκραξομαι, noting that it is "as fut."--which I assume means "is used with the same meaning as a future" (similar to his preceding comment, "2 perf κεκραγα as pres.").But then look at Smyth, §1955, who lists 10 future-perfect monolectic forms, including 3 κεκ- forms: ἀναγεγράψομαι, δεδήσεται, κεκλῄσεται, πεπράξεται, εἰρήσεται, κεκλήσομαι, μεμνήσομαι, κεκτήσομαι, τεθνήξω, and ἑστήξω. He does refer to some of these (κεκλήσομαι, μεμνήσομαι, κεκτήσομαι in particular) as being "used like a simple future," but that is a statement of pragmatic function, not morphological formation.
Maybe I'm missing some other data in Smyth somewhere or not understanding what I've cited correctly, but regardless of what may be true of other forms listed in other posts above, it sure sounds to me like Smyth is treating the reduplicated κεκ- forms of κραζω as legitimate, monolectic, futurePerfect forms of κραζω.
So what have I gotten twisted up here?
Rodney J. Decker
Prof/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary
Clarks Summit, PA
(See profile for my NTResources blog address.)
Prof/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary
Clarks Summit, PA
(See profile for my NTResources blog address.)
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Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
Rod, I'm curious: what prompted your original question about future perfects in the LXX? Was is something you're working on in the NT?
Ken M. Penner
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
An unannounced project; contact me offline. (I apparently no longer have your email address.) Contact info here: http://ntresources.com/blog/?page_id=942
Rodney J. Decker
Prof/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary
Clarks Summit, PA
(See profile for my NTResources blog address.)
Prof/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary
Clarks Summit, PA
(See profile for my NTResources blog address.)
Re: Future Perfect forms in LXX?
There are the Homeric reduplicated second aorists that Smyth mentions in 446d, but there's one reduplicated second aorist that he does not mention that is one of the most important verbs in the language -- he probably doesn't mention it because the reduplication is hidden by evanescence of the digamma and subsequent contraction of ε + ε into ει -- I'm referring to εἶπον/εἰπεῖν from an original ϝέϝεπον. Some might imagine that εἶπον is simply augmented: ἔϝεπον, but the aorist verb stem is εἰπ-, not ἐπ-.RDecker wrote: ... As for Smyth, I'm a bit puzzled, so Dr. "Carl-Smyth"may need to take me in hand here. The discussion in 447 pertains to what I've usually called "iotat redup." which is the normal form for the present in the μι verbs, in contrast to "normal"/ε redup. used in the perf. And 448 lists only 2 verbs, ἀγω and φερω, that have a duplicated syllable at the beginning of the stem in 2Aor--but I've never thought of them as "reduplicated" forms that have the same morphology as perfects. Perhaps I've just used "reduplicated" in a narrower sense (maybe narrower than I should?). ...
I'm not trying here to elucidate the problematic future perfect, but only illustrating that there are complexities in ancient Greek that defy oversimplification of verb morphology into simple patterns and rules. I'm inclined to think that every period of Greek linguistic history from which texts survive can display "living fossils" of former eras.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)