Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Other Greek writings of the New Testament era, including papyri and inscriptions
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Bernd Strauss
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Bernd Strauss » March 30th, 2018, 1:28 pm

I can see now that the plural article τοῖς, which it is easy to overlook, determines how the phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι is to be exactly understood. Although I have to work with Greek texts in my studies, my knowledge of the Greek language is limited. So your explanations help a lot.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Barry Hofstetter » March 30th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Bernd Strauss wrote:
March 30th, 2018, 1:28 pm
I can see now that the plural article τοῖς, which it is easy to overlook...
The more you look over the text, the less likely you'll overlook anything... :lol:
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » March 30th, 2018, 6:17 pm

B. Hofstetter wrote:
The more you look over the text, the less likely you'll overlook anything... :lol:
Bernd Strauss wrote:
March 29th, 2018, 5:09 pm
The text is apparently speaking about the report of Josephus’ coming to Tiberias while he was still on his way, rather than to his presence there after his arrival. This seems to be an instance where the word παρουσία is used with the meaning “coming” rather than “presence.” I am currently looking for such usages of the word in ancient Greek writings.
I'm tentatively in agreement with "παρουσία is used with the meaning “coming” rather than “presence.” To reach this state of tentative agreement I had to spend some time looking at the whole paragraph:
Ὁ δ' Ἰωάννης ἀφικόμενος εἰς τὴν Τιβεριέων πόλιν ἔπειθε ... ὡς μηδὲ τὴν πρὸς ἐκεῖνον πίστιν
φυλαξόντων.
Josephus, not being one of my favorite authors, it took some time to read this do the unfamiliar vocabulary. I'm wondering what level of confidence I could assign to my research if I was unable to read Josephus. I suppose using one of the Bible applications you can sort of plow through it.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » March 30th, 2018, 6:35 pm

ἐντυχὼν οὖν τοῖς γράμμασι τοῦ Σίλα καὶ διακοσίους ἀναλαβὼν ἄνδρας δι᾽ ὅλης τῆς νυκτὸς τὴν πορείαν ἐποιούμην, προπέμψας ἄγγελον τὸν τὴν ἐμὴν παρουσίαν τοῖς ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι σημανοῦντα
... One of the things that slowed me down; "τὸν τὴν ἐμὴν παρουσίαν τοῖς ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι σημανοῦντα" sent me off on a research project looking for other constructions like this.

Joannes Chrysostomus

Πολλοὺς ἔχεις Θεοῦ χάριτι καὶ μεγάλους τοὺς συναλ-
γοῦντας, τοὺς ἀλείφοντας, τοὺς ὑπὲρ τῆς σῆς τρέμοντας
ψυχῆς· τὸν ἅγιον τοῦ θεοῦ Βαλέριον, τὸν πάντα αὐτῷ τιμιώ-
τατον ἀδελφὸν Φλωρέντιον, τὸν τὴν τοῦ Χριστοῦ σοφίαν σοφὸν
Πορφύριον
, καὶ ἑτέρους πολλούς.

postscript: A lot of time was expended on reviewing regular expressions in Diogenes. The search engine supports a limited subset of regular expressions. To discover the limits you use trial and error. Then a couple years later you do it all over again.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Wes Wood
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Wes Wood » March 30th, 2018, 11:25 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
March 30th, 2018, 6:17 pm
B. Hofstetter wrote:
The more you look over the text, the less likely you'll overlook anything... :lol:
Bernd Strauss wrote:
March 29th, 2018, 5:09 pm
The text is apparently speaking about the report of Josephus’ coming to Tiberias while he was still on his way, rather than to his presence there after his arrival. This seems to be an instance where the word παρουσία is used with the meaning “coming” rather than “presence.” I am currently looking for such usages of the word in ancient Greek writings.
I'm tentatively in agreement with "παρουσία is used with the meaning “coming” rather than “presence.” To reach this state of tentative agreement I had to spend some time looking at the whole paragraph:
Ὁ δ' Ἰωάννης ἀφικόμενος εἰς τὴν Τιβεριέων πόλιν ἔπειθε ... ὡς μηδὲ τὴν πρὸς ἐκεῖνον πίστιν
φυλαξόντων.
Josephus, not being one of my favorite authors, it took some time to read this do the unfamiliar vocabulary. I'm wondering what level of confidence I could assign to my research if I was unable to read Josephus. I suppose using one of the Bible applications you can sort of plow through it.
Why do you hold this as a tentative conclusion since the next verse reads, "πρωῒ δὲ πλησιάζοντος ἐμοῦ τῇ πόλει ?" If the choice is between "coming" meaning that the man was on his way or "presence" meaning that he was already there, I don't see how the latter meaning can stand. If, on the other hand, you are questioning whether or not the word was intended to encapsulate a process (the specific idea that the author was on his way), I don't think there is enough information to say with certainty. There is no question that it is a difficult word to fully grasp, even if the information it conveys is perfectly comprehensible.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Bernd Strauss
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Bernd Strauss » March 31st, 2018, 7:06 am

The word παρουσία seems to be referring to Josephus’ coming to the people in Tiberias, and the courier was to report this to Tiberians while Josephus was still on his way. Otherwise, it could be argued that the courier was sent after Josephus’ arrival to report Josephus’ presence.

"Ὁ δ᾿ Ἰωάννης ἀφικόμενος εἰς τὴν Τιβεριέων πόλιν ἔπειθε τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἀποστάντας τῆς πρός με πίστεως προστίθεσθαι αὐτῷ. καὶ πολλοὶ τὴν παράκλησιν ἡδέως ἐδέξαντο, νεωτέρων ἐπιθυμοῦντες αἰεὶ πραγμάτων καὶ φύσει πρὸς μεταβολὰς ἐπιτηδείως ἔχοντες καὶ στάσεσι χαίροντες· μάλιστα δὲ Ἰοῦστος καὶ ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ Πίστος ὡρμήκεσαν ἀποστάντες ἐμοῦ προσθέσθαι τῷ Ἰωάννῃ. διεκώλυσα δ᾿ αὐτοὺς φθάσας. ἧκεν γὰρ ἄγγελός μοι παρὰ Σίλα, ὃν ἐγὼ καθεστάκειν τῆς Τιβεριάδος στρατηγόν, ὡς προεῖπον, τὴν τῶν Τιβεριέων γνώμην ἀπαγγέλλων κἀμὲ σπεύδειν παρακαλῶν· βραδύναντος γὰρ ὑπὸ τὴν ἑτέρων ἐξουσίαν γενήσεσθαι τὴν πόλιν. ἐντυχὼν οὖν τοῖς γράμμασι τοῦ Σίλα καὶ διακοσίους ἀναλαβὼν ἄνδρας δι᾿ ὅλης τῆς νυκτὸς τὴν πορείαν ἐποιούμην, προπέμψας ἄγγελον τὸν τὴν ἐμὴν παρουσίαν τοῖς ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι σημανοῦντα. πρωῒ δὲ πλησιάζοντος ἐμοῦ τῇ πόλει τὸ πλῆθος ὑπηντίαζεν καὶ Ἰωάννης σὺν αὐτοῖς· ὃς καὶ πάνυ με τεταραγμένως ἀσπασάμενος, δείσας μὴ εἰς ἔλεγχον αὐτοῦ τῆς πράξεως ἀφικομένης ἀπολέσθαι κινδυνεύσῃ, ὑπεχώρησε μετὰ 92σπουδῆς εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ κατάλυσιν."

Loeb Classical Library, H. St. J. Thackeray’s translation, volume 1:

"On his arrival at Tiberias, John attempted to induce the inhabitants to abandon their allegiance to me and attach themselves to him; and there were many who, ever craving for revolution, by temperament addicted to change and delighting in sedition, gladly responded to his invitation. In particular Justus and his father Pistus were eager to desert me and go over to John. My speedy action, however, thwarted their plans. For a messenger reached me from Silas, whom, as I have already mentioned, I had appointed governor of Tiberias, bringing word of the intention of the citizens and exhorting me to make haste, since, if I delayed, the town would pass into the hands of others. Having read Silas’s dispatch I mustered two hundred men and marched all night long, sending a courier in advance to inform the people of Tiberias that I was coming. As I approached the city at dawn I was met by the population, including John, who saluted me in evident confusion and, fearing that the exposure of his proceedings would endanger his life, hastily retired to his lodging."
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Wes Wood
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Wes Wood » March 31st, 2018, 9:02 am

Bernd Strauss wrote:
March 31st, 2018, 7:06 am
The word παρουσία seems to be referring to Josephus’ coming to the people in Tiberias, and the courier was to report this to Tiberians while Josephus was still on his way. Otherwise, it could be argued that the courier was sent after Josephus’ arrival to report Josephus’ presence.

"Ὁ δ᾿ Ἰωάννης ἀφικόμενος εἰς τὴν Τιβεριέων πόλιν ἔπειθε τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἀποστάντας τῆς πρός με πίστεως προστίθεσθαι αὐτῷ. καὶ πολλοὶ τὴν παράκλησιν ἡδέως ἐδέξαντο, νεωτέρων ἐπιθυμοῦντες αἰεὶ πραγμάτων καὶ φύσει πρὸς μεταβολὰς ἐπιτηδείως ἔχοντες καὶ στάσεσι χαίροντες· μάλιστα δὲ Ἰοῦστος καὶ ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ Πίστος ὡρμήκεσαν ἀποστάντες ἐμοῦ προσθέσθαι τῷ Ἰωάννῃ. διεκώλυσα δ᾿ αὐτοὺς φθάσας. ἧκεν γὰρ ἄγγελός μοι παρὰ Σίλα, ὃν ἐγὼ καθεστάκειν τῆς Τιβεριάδος στρατηγόν, ὡς προεῖπον, τὴν τῶν Τιβεριέων γνώμην ἀπαγγέλλων κἀμὲ σπεύδειν παρακαλῶν· βραδύναντος γὰρ ὑπὸ τὴν ἑτέρων ἐξουσίαν γενήσεσθαι τὴν πόλιν. ἐντυχὼν οὖν τοῖς γράμμασι τοῦ Σίλα καὶ διακοσίους ἀναλαβὼν ἄνδρας δι᾿ ὅλης τῆς νυκτὸς τὴν πορείαν ἐποιούμην, προπέμψας ἄγγελον τὸν τὴν ἐμὴν παρουσίαν τοῖς ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι σημανοῦντα. πρωῒ δὲ πλησιάζοντος ἐμοῦ τῇ πόλει τὸ πλῆθος ὑπηντίαζεν καὶ Ἰωάννης σὺν αὐτοῖς· ὃς καὶ πάνυ με τεταραγμένως ἀσπασάμενος, δείσας μὴ εἰς ἔλεγχον αὐτοῦ τῆς πράξεως ἀφικομένης ἀπολέσθαι κινδυνεύσῃ, ὑπεχώρησε μετὰ 92σπουδῆς εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ κατάλυσιν."

Loeb Classical Library, H. St. J. Thackeray’s translation, volume 1:

"On his arrival at Tiberias, John attempted to induce the inhabitants to abandon their allegiance to me and attach themselves to him; and there were many who, ever craving for revolution, by temperament addicted to change and delighting in sedition, gladly responded to his invitation. In particular Justus and his father Pistus were eager to desert me and go over to John. My speedy action, however, thwarted their plans. For a messenger reached me from Silas, whom, as I have already mentioned, I had appointed governor of Tiberias, bringing word of the intention of the citizens and exhorting me to make haste, since, if I delayed, the town would pass into the hands of others. Having read Silas’s dispatch I mustered two hundred men and marched all night long, sending a courier in advance to inform the people of Tiberias that I was coming. As I approached the city at dawn I was met by the population, including John, who saluted me in evident confusion and, fearing that the exposure of his proceedings would endanger his life, hastily retired to his lodging."
The question that I am asking is why others believe that the statement underlined above is a likely option. The text says that Josephus sent the messenger while he was making his way to Tiberias, and we know from the next verse that the people met him at his arrival. This means that Josephus couldn't have sent the messenger after he was present. There doesn't seem to be a solid argument in favor of this understanding.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » March 31st, 2018, 1:51 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
March 31st, 2018, 9:02 am

The question that I am asking is why others believe that the statement underlined above is a likely option. The text says that Josephus sent the messenger while he was making his way to Tiberias, and we know from the next verse that the people met him at his arrival. This means that Josephus couldn't have sent the messenger after he was present. There doesn't seem to be a solid argument in favor of this understanding.
I often wonder when lexical semantic analysis proceeds along the well-worn path of binary oppositions ... Is there a better way of approaching this? Thus my tentative response. After looking at παρουσία in BDAG, L&N, Spicq, I have reservations about the either/or style of analysis.
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Wes Wood
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Wes Wood » March 31st, 2018, 2:53 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
March 31st, 2018, 1:51 pm
Wes Wood wrote:
March 31st, 2018, 9:02 am

The question that I am asking is why others believe that the statement underlined above is a likely option. The text says that Josephus sent the messenger while he was making his way to Tiberias, and we know from the next verse that the people met him at his arrival. This means that Josephus couldn't have sent the messenger after he was present. There doesn't seem to be a solid argument in favor of this understanding.
I often wonder when lexical semantic analysis proceeds along the well-worn path of binary oppositions ... Is there a better way of approaching this? Thus my tentative response. After looking at παρουσία in BDAG, L&N, Spicq, I have reservations about the either/or style of analysis.
I can appreciate the sentiment. I suspect that there may be a common element linking these two thoughts (and perhaps others) that is currently obscured from us. At the very least, it seems to me that the word doesn't have to refer to a literal presence or imply any kind of motion toward an intended destination, even if one or the other of these elements is explicit in the context of a given passage. Is it fair then to say that your reticence pertains to the general meaning of the word rather than how it should be understood here?
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Linking the Phrase ἐν τῇ Τιβεριάδι With the Words in the Context

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » March 31st, 2018, 3:37 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
March 31st, 2018, 2:53 pm
I can appreciate the sentiment. I suspect that there may be a common element linking these two thoughts (and perhaps others) that is currently obscured from us. At the very least, it seems to me that the word doesn't have to refer to a literal presence or imply any kind of motion toward an intended destination, even if one or the other of these elements is explicit in the context of a given passage. Is it fair then to say that your reticence pertains to the general meaning of the word rather than how it should be understood here?
Yes, it's possible παρουσία represents a collection of semantic features for which there is no English equivalent, in such a manner that arrival, coming and presence could be collected in one semantic package. What I'm suggesting is we not be blinded by the translation options in any particular modern language. I'm very much aware of the hazards involved with trying to impose a modern English semantic network on an ancient language.
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