verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

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Stirling Bartholomew
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verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » April 20th, 2017, 5:24 pm

This is a question about the verbal adjectives formed with -τέον + dative of agent (cf. Smyth #2149, Cooper vol 1, 1:56.18.1 p.865). Cooper says the person from whom the action is demanded is in the dative. Smyth says the person on whom the necessity rests is in the dative.

My question is about two specific potential examples, marked below in Kovac’s text. I am wondering if both of these are in fact examples. The first one looks good but second one looks kind of dicey because of word order, translation, etc. On line 1024 if σοι is the agent of δραστέον then what exactly are the contents of the relative clause? Perhaps it is best to construe σοι with δοκεῖ.
Euripides ΙΦΙΓΕΝΕΙΑ Η ΕΝ ΑΥΛΙΔΙ
David Kovacs 2003

1015
ἱκέτευ᾿ ἐκεῖνον πρῶτα μὴ κτείνειν τέκνον·

ἢν δ᾿ ἀντιβαίνῃ, πρὸς ἐμέ σοι πορευτέον.

[οὐ γάρ, τὸ χρῇζον εἰ πίθοι, τοὐμὸν χρεὼν

χωρεῖν· ἔχει γὰρ τοῦτο τὴν σωτηρίαν.

κἀγώ τ᾿ ἀμείνων πρὸς φίλον γενήσομαι,

1020
στρατός τ᾿ ἂν οὐ μέμψαιτό μ᾿, εἰ τὰ πράγματα

λελογισμένως πράσσοιμι μᾶλλον ἢ σθένει.]

καλῶς δὲ κρανθὲν κἂν ἐμοῦ χωρὶς τόδε

σοί τ᾿ ἂν γένοιτο καὶ φίλοις πρὸς ἡδονήν.

ΚΛΥΤΑΙΜΗΣΤΡΑ
ὡς σώφρον᾿ εἶπας· δραστέον δ᾿ ἅ σοι δοκεῖ.

1025
ἢν δ᾿ αὖ τι μὴ πράσσωμεν ὧν ἐγὼ θέλω,

ποῦ σ᾿ αὖθις ὀψόμεσθα, ποῖ χρή μ᾿ ἀθλίαν

ἐλθοῦσαν εὑρεῖν σὴν χέρ᾿ ἐπίκουρον κακῶν;

Achilles
First beg him not to kill his child. If he resists, you must come to me. [If entreaty prevails on him, no need for me to intervene: entreaty by itself wins her life. That way I will prove to be kindlier to my friend, and the army will not find fault with me if I handle things cleverly and not by might.] If fortune smiles, even without my aid this affair will turn out well for you and your family.

Clytaemestra
What sensible words! We must do as you think best. But if I fail in my attempt, where can I find you again? Where must I go in my misery to find your hand to rescue me from trouble?
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stephen Hughes
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Re: verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 20th, 2017, 10:07 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 5:24 pm
δραστέον δ᾿ ἅ σοι δοκεῖ.
We must do as you think best.
"We must" is the translator's artistic choice here. He could have rendered, "It is necessary for me to", "I should", "Our only [or best] option is to", or anything similar. The "as" is also a literary creation of the translator, attempting to take the verb less transitively and to take the relative clause more like an accusative of respect.

cwconrad
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Re: verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by cwconrad » April 21st, 2017, 5:35 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 10:07 pm
Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 5:24 pm
δραστέον δ᾿ ἅ σοι δοκεῖ.
We must do as you think best.
"We must" is the translator's artistic choice here. He could have rendered, "It is necessary for me to", "I should", "Our only [or best] option is to", or anything similar. The "as" is also a literary creation of the translator, attempting to take the verb less transitively and to take the relative clause more like an accusative of respect.
For my part, I do think that the σοι in the clause ἅ σοι δοκεῖ can itself construe only with δοκεῖ, but it could imply a σοι to be construed with δραστέον -- but as the translator suggests, since the action to be taken involves both parties, the pronoun implied with δραστέον might just as well be ἡμῖν: "You must do as you think proper" or "We must do as you propose." I think there's a dative implicit with δραστέον either way, but it's up to the interpreter to guess which seems more appropriate. The translation you've given simply shows the translator's preferred interpretation.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 546
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » April 21st, 2017, 2:24 pm

cwconrad wrote:
April 21st, 2017, 5:35 am

For my part, I do think that the σοι in the clause ἅ σοι δοκεῖ can itself construe only with δοκεῖ, but it could imply a σοι to be construed with δραστέον -- but as the translator suggests, since the action to be taken involves both parties, the pronoun implied with δραστέον might just as well be ἡμῖν: "You must do as you think proper" or "We must do as you propose." I think there's a dative implicit with δραστέον either way, but it's up to the interpreter to guess which seems more appropriate. The translation you've given simply shows the translator's preferred interpretation.
Thanks Carl,

ΚΛΥΤΑΙΜΗΣΤΡΑ
ὡς σώφρον᾿ εἶπας· δραστέον δ᾿ ἅ σοι δοκεῖ.

That clears things up, ἅ σοι δοκεῖ "what seems best to you" and δραστέον stands alone. A. T. Robertson has a discussion of this non-NT idiom pp. 1095-97.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 21st, 2017, 8:17 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
April 21st, 2017, 2:24 pm
δραστέον stands alone. A. T. Robertson has a discussion of this non-NT idiom
Why does ATR say it is not a NT idiom? Not spelling out the pseudo-subject of this construction is also in the New Testament. Luke doesn't state explicitly who should put new wine into new wine-skins.
Luke 5:38 wrote:Ἀλλὰ οἶνον νέον εἰς ἀσκοὺς καινοὺς βλητέον, καὶ ἀμφότεροι συντηροῦνται.
It is necessary (for us / for wine merchants / for people) to put new wine into new wine skins, ...
βλητέον is parsed nominative singular neuter, while οἶνον νέον is parsed accusative singular macsuline (the object of βάλλω).


cwconrad
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Re: verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by cwconrad » April 22nd, 2017, 5:55 am

Well, well, well ... The old lore that I learned from others and that I taught. I'm reminded of a high-school Geometry teacher who declared that Euclid was still the authority in the field. His maxim about textbooks was, "The new books are not good and the good books are not new." Apart from geometry, however, I don't think I'd hold with that maxim, we've certainly learned more from others before us than we've discovered for ourselves. On the other hand, the old lore should not be a deterrent from formulating more adequate accountings for usage than those that we first learned.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3229
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: verbal adjectives formed with -τέον Eu.IA

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 22nd, 2017, 3:28 pm

Sounds like a rethink.

What was Luke capable of? Probably the best Attic. What did he intend to write? Something on a continuum.

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