Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
Forum rules
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Post Reply
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Syntax of ἐλ(ε)εινός - 1 Corinthians 15:19 & Lysias 24.7

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood - Lysias 24.7(2nd half) wrote:the ones who are being pitied [even] by [their] enemies
Stephen Hughes after the style of Wes Wood wrote:the ones who are being piteous even to their enemies
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:τοὺς καὶ τοῖς ἐχθροῖς ἐλεινοὺς
We translated this differently. Am I wrong?
I like your translation better. Mine is puerile and stilted to try and "retain" the dative.
I guess that statement of mine would make more sense if we look at this verse:
1 Corinthians 15:19 wrote:Εἰ ἐν τῇ ζωῇ ταύτῃ ἠλπικότες ἐσμὲν ἐν χριστῷ μόνον, ἐλεεινότεροι πάντων ἀνθρώπων ἐσμέν.
The point being that grammatically the genitive πάντων ἀνθρώπων is with the comparative, not with the adjective (which is confirmation of the easiest sense of it anyway).
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

§9 - Lysias, On the refusal of a pension to the invalid

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Section 9 is Is a little longer and logically more complicated, but the language is quite straightforward.

Lysias makes an ad hominem comparison between the social status of the invalid and that of the plaintiff:
Lysias, On the refusal of a pension to the invalid 24, 9 wrote:δοκεῖ δέ μοι τῆς πενίας τῆς ἐμῆς τὸ μέγεθος ὁ κατήγορος ἂν ἐπιδεῖξαι σαφέστατα μόνος ἀνθρώπων. εἰ γὰρ ἐγὼ κατασταθεὶς χορηγὸς τραγῳδοῖς προκαλεσαίμην¹ αὐτὸν εἰς ἀντίδοσιν, δεκάκις ἂν ἕλοιτο χορηγῆσαι μᾶλλον ἢ ἀντιδοῦναι ἅπαξ. καὶ πῶς οὐ δεινόν ἐστι νῦν μὲν κατηγορεῖν ὡς διὰ πολλὴν εὐπορίαν ἐξ ἴσου δύναμαι συνεῖναι τοῖς πλουσιωτάτοις, εἰ δὲ ὧν ἐγὼ λέγω τύχοι τι γενόμενον, τοιοῦτον εἶναι; καὶ τί² πονηρότερον;

1 προκαλεσαίμην Reiske: προσκαλεσαίμην MSS.
2 τί Halm: ἔτι MSS.
Hints for §9: (If there is anything you are uncertain about after your own reading, you might find it here, otherwise you could try in the Middle Liddel.)
  • δοκεῖ ... μοι - this may or may not be impersonal. The overall sentence needs to be considered.
  • πενία - You are probably familiar with the word πτωχεία, but in this case I wouldn't go so far as to say one is classical and the other Koine. I think that the situation is more complex.
  • μόνος - I find it useful to think of the verb μένειν here, something like, "if he was the last remaining person"
  • προ(σ)καλέω - "invite" or "challenge" doesn't really make a great deal of difference, I think.
  • χορηγὸς - This could be an expensive social obligation.
  • ἕλοιτο - this verb is suppletive.
  • τοῖς πλουσιωτάτοις - At least consider the possibilities of what this dative could go with.
  • ὧν - note the spiritus asper (τούτων ἅ).
  • καὶ τί² πονηρότερον; - a rhetorical question.
[/size]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

§7 Lysias- Part Three

Post by Wes Wood »

"and do not decide to treat me unjustly and cause the ones who are in the same situation that I am in to lose heart."
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias §8 Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood »

"For it would be very strange, O Council, if when my misfortune was uncompounded I was known [to be] receiving this stipend, but it is taken away now after old age and diseases and all these afflictions are plaguing me."

I do not feel like I completely understand how this phrase is operating. τὰ τούτοις ἑπόμενα1 κακὰ προσγίγνεταί μοι. I am treating it as though he is feeling the ongoing effects of old age and the diseases he has. Is this an example where the subject and verb don't have to agree in number?
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Wes Wood §8 - First feedback - On the refusal of a pension

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:I do not feel like I completely understand how this phrase is operating. τὰ τούτοις ἑπόμενα κακὰ προσγίγνεταί μοι. I am treating it as though he is feeling the ongoing effects of old age and the diseases he has. Is this an example where the subject and verb don't have to agree in number?
Yes, it is an example of that. Let's have a look at the full sentence:
Lysias 24.8 (part) wrote:νῦν δ᾽ ἐπειδὴ καὶ γῆρας καὶ νόσοι καὶ τὰ τούτοις ἑπόμενα κακὰ προσγίγνεταί μοι.
The verb should refer to all three things καὶ γῆρας καὶ νόσοι καὶ τὰ ... κακὰ. But it only agrees in number with the last one. I assume you are familiar with that from the New Testament.

προσγίγνεσθαι (+dat.) "to attach to something", "to acrue to someone / something" is not used in the New Testament, but I think it is fairly straightforward.

τούτοις this demonstrative refers to γῆρας καὶ νόσοι from earlier in the sentence.

ἕπεσθαι (+dat.) "to follow someone / something" is to be taken with τούτοις
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Wes Wood §7.3 - First feedback - Lysias Speech 24

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Lysias 24.7 (third part) wrote:μηδ᾽ ἐμὲ τολμήσαντες ἀδικῆσαι καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους τοὺς ὁμοίως ἐμοὶ διακειμένους ἀθυμῆσαι ποιήσητε.
Wes Wood wrote:"and do not decide to treat me unjustly and cause the ones who are in the same situation that I am in to lose heart."
Generally good. :)

Two little points
  • τολμᾶν - Is this with the head or heart? (You could look it up, I've put in a hyper-link).
  • Does the sentence that I've put in violet, (particularly the "and") adequately express the anteriority / posteriority of the two actions? Moreover, I get more of the indirect negative command from the Greek, than I do from your English rendering of sense. Do you see that he is not telling them directly "don't be so brazen", or "the very hide of you". It is more subtle and less direct.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

§9 Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood »

But it seems to me that the plaintiff alone [1] could prove the greatness of my need most clearly. For if I were appointed as a chorus leader to a tragedy and I challenged him to exchange property ???, he would ten times rather lead a chorus than to exchange property once. And how is it not terrible now, indeed, to accuse me thus, ‘I am able to be with the richest men as an equal because of [my] great ease.’ but if [2] such things that I speak about happened to come to pass, what worse would also happen?

1 If I understand this correctly, this is the point of the phrase μόνος ἀνθρώπων. As luck would have it, I stumbled onto this while looking at superlatives in Smyth the other day.

2 From this point on, I was very uncomfortable with the text. This is what I think it means, but I am intend to tinker with it on my own some more.

I posted this before I noted that you had posted about the other. This worked out well :)
*edited the title of post
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Wes Wood §7.3 - Lysias Speech 24

Post by Wes Wood »

1) τολμᾶν: I was thinking "head" since my familiarity with the word comes from the New Testament. The overall thought makes much better sense with "heart." Thanks for pointing out another hidden assumption. Oh, the things I never knew I never know!

2) How is this? "and do not by having the cruelty to treat me unjustly, cause the ones who are in the same situation that I am in to lose heart."

Much appreciated, as always.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Wes Wood §9 - First feedback - On the refusal of a pension

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Lysias, 24, 9 wrote:δοκεῖ δέ μοι τῆς πενίας τῆς ἐμῆς τὸ μέγεθος ὁ κατήγορος ἂν ἐπιδεῖξαι σαφέστατα μόνος ἀνθρώπων. εἰ γὰρ ἐγὼ κατασταθεὶς χορηγὸς τραγῳδοῖς προκαλεσαίμην¹ αὐτὸν εἰς ἀντίδοσιν, δεκάκις ἂν ἕλοιτο χορηγῆσαι μᾶλλον ἢ ἀντιδοῦναι ἅπαξ. καὶ πῶς οὐ δεινόν ἐστι νῦν μὲν κατηγορεῖν ὡς διὰ πολλὴν εὐπορίαν ἐξ ἴσου δύναμαι συνεῖναι τοῖς πλουσιωτάτοις, εἰ δὲ ὧν ἐγὼ λέγω τύχοι τι γενόμενον, τοιοῦτον εἶναι; καὶ τί² πονηρότερον;
Wes Wood wrote:But it seems to me that the plaintiff alone [1] could prove the greatness of my need most clearly. For if I were appointed as a chorus leader to a tragedy and I challenged him to exchange property ???, he would ten times rather lead a chorus than to exchange property once. And how is it not terrible now, indeed, to accuse me thus, ‘I am able to be with the richest men as an equal because of [my] great ease.’ but if [2] such things that I speak about happened to come to pass, what worse would also happen?
I've understood this χορηγὸς τραγῳδοῖς as a public duty imposed upon the rich to help the polis, "patron", "benefactor". I'm not so comfortable thinking that πενία could have a μέγεθος. :?: :| That he's saying that the plaintiff is more than 10 times richer than him is clear.

It seems that the the first section τῆς πενίας τῆς ἐμῆς τὸ μέγεθος ὁ κατήγορος ἂν ἐπιδεῖξαι σαφέστατα μόνος ἀνθρώπων is a subtle way of saying, "In his imagination, and his only ... "
Wes Wood wrote:But it seems to me that the plaintiff alone
Wes Wood wrote:1 If I understand this correctly, this is the point of the phrase μόνος ἀνθρώπων. As luck would have it, I stumbled onto this while looking at superlatives in Smyth the other day.
That sort of ignores the ἀνθρώπων. Perhaps Acts 4:7 Ἀλλ’ ἵνα μὴ ἐπὶ πλεῖον διανεμηθῇ εἰς τὸν λαόν, ἀπειλῇ ἀπειλησόμεθα αὐτοῖς μηκέτι λαλεῖν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι τούτῳ μηδενὶ ἀνθρώπων. could provide a parallel. Or Acts 15:17 ὅπως ἂν ἐκζητήσωσιν οἱ κατάλοιποι τῶν ἀνθρώπων τὸν κύριον, καὶ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἐφ’ οὓς ἐπικέκληται τὸ ὄνομά μου ἐπ’ αὐτούς, λέγει κύριος ὁ ποιῶν ταῦτα πάντα. Also the next verse Acts 17:26 ἐποίησέν τε ἐξ ἑνὸς αἵματος πᾶν ἔθνος ἀνθρώπων, κατοικεῖν ἐπὶ πᾶν τὸ πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς, ὁρίσας προστεταγμένους καιροὺς καὶ τὰς ὁροθεσίας τῆς κατοικίας αὐτῶν· Perhaps also 1 Corinthians 15:19 Εἰ ἐν τῇ ζωῇ ταύτῃ ἠλπικότες ἐσμὲν ἐν χριστῷ μόνον, ἐλεεινότεροι πάντων ἀνθρώπων ἐσμέν., if we take πάντων as complete and ἀνθρώπων as doing what it is doing here. :roll: :? :?: :oops:
Wes Wood wrote:2 From this point on, I was very uncomfortable with the text. This is what I think it means, but I am intend to tinker with it on my own some more.
Well, let's not reach in for the clothes till the extra rinse cycle is finished.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Wes Wood §7.3 - τολμᾶν - Lysias Speech 24

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:2) How is this? "and do not by having the cruelty to treat me unjustly, cause the ones who are in the same situation that I am in to lose heart."
Have you ever seen an old person worry when their expectations are confounded. Some seemingly trivial thing like the supermarket moved a certain item, or the bus route changed. That worry betrays their sense of vulnerability and gives us an indication of the whole range of things that they rely on. That is what I think is being talked about here. In other words, I don't agree with the word "cruelty" that you are using for τολμᾶν. It's "brash", "rash", "unpredictable". Having a predictable future is very important at the times of their life when people feel a little less independent, and more reliant on outside help.
Wes Wood wrote:Much appreciated, as always.
8-) In ultimate terms, we never own anything. They just pass through our possession and usage for a while. A knowledge of Classical Greek, or anything is not self-existent. If it is not shared, it ceases to exist when I do.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Post Reply

Return to “Other Greek Texts”