ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

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Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:While on the matter, my version for the last section does not look like their version. I missed something very important in it. And things were going so smoothly for a change...
I think that is a good thing. You are processing the language, but your model needs tweaking. Generally, we handle a finite number of inputs and ignore the rest - blind spots. As you develop a more adapted model - set of steps - for processing the Greek, you won't lose things so often. You should generally expect to have to think about 5 things as you process language. The rest should be hard-wired somehow. If you want to be self-critical, you could start by considering what you are thinking, what doesn't need to be thought, then streamline the process. Sounds straightforward, but it takes some effort. Monitoring how much English goes through your brain when you're dealing with Greek. It is probably way more than you realise. Thinking bilingually is not bad, but it can get out of hand.

You can try different models of what is important to think about, or do them on different passes - first pass identify the people involved, second pass identify what they are doing to what, third pass identify the aspects, fourth pass identify the times and relative times, or something like that. As you go on in a language, those things happen in your mind after the text has been internalised and that's what your aiming for - internalised processing.

I'll get to your later section in the morning - about 10 hours from now.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood »

Chapter 1, section 23 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote:ἀλλὰ δεῖ [1], ὦ Κριτόβουλε, πρὸς ταῦτα οὐχ ἧττον [2] διαμάχεσθαι [3] περὶ τῆς ἐλευθερίας [4] ἢ πρὸς τοὺς σὺν ὅπλοις [5] πειρωμένους [6] καταδουλοῦσθαι [7]. πολέμιοι [8] μὲν οὖν [9] ἤδη [10] ὅταν καλοὶ [11] κἀγαθοὶ [12] ὄντες καταδουλώσωνταί τινας, πολλοὺς δὴ [13] βελτίους [14] ἠνάγκασαν [15] εἶναι σωφρονίσαντες, [16] καὶ ῥᾷον [17] βιοτεύειν [18] τὸν λοιπὸν χρόνον [19] ἐποίησαν [20]: αἱ δὲ τοιαῦται [21] δέσποιναι [22] αἰκιζόμεναι [23] τὰ σώματα τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς καὶ τοὺς οἴκους οὔποτε λήγουσιν [24], ἔστ᾽ ἂν ἄρχωσιν αὐτῶν.



Hints: Look at these if you need to
  1. δεῖ: the infinitive that completes this is διαμάχεσθαι
  2. ἧττον: ἥττων-less, weak. This is a comparative. Notice this element with “ἢ” that comes later sets up a comparison between περὶ τῆς ἐλευθερίας and πρὸς τοὺς σὺν ὅπλοις πειρωμένους καταδουλοῦσθαι. What verb needs to be supplied for the second element?
  3. διαμάχεσθαι: to fight, strive against, contend
  4. ἐλευθερίας: ἐλευθερία-freedom, liberty
  5. ὅπλοις: ὅπλον-weapon
  6. πειρωμένους: πείρειν-to try, attempt, endeavor
  7. καταδουλοῦσθαι: to make a slave
  8. πολέμιοι: πολέμιος-hostile. In Xenophon this is the most frequent usage (LSJ). I am taking this as a substantive “the ones who are hostile”.
  9. οὖν: certainly, in fact
  10. ἤδη: I took this as “actually” rather than “already”
  11. καλοὶ: καλός-beautiful *I’m unsure about this
  12. κἀγαθοὶ: ἀγαθός-good *I’m unsure about this
  13. πολλοὺς δὴ: many times
  14. βελτίους: βελτίων-better; comparative
  15. ἠνάγκασαν: ἀναγκάζειν-to compel
  16. σωφρονίσαντες: σωφρονίζειν- to chasten
  17. ῥᾷον: ῥᾴδιος-easy; comparative
  18. βιοτεύειν: to live, get food, reside
  19. τὸν λοιπὸν χρόνον: the remaining time
  20. ἐποίησαν: cause (I put this here because it might be helpful to those who are most familiar with the New Testament.)
  21. τοιαῦται: τοιοῦτος-the ones such as these
  22. δέσποιναι: δέσποινα-mistresses
  23. αἰκιζόμεναι: αἰκίζειν- to torture; this verb takes three objects here
  24. λήγουσιν: λήγειν-to stay, remain
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood »

Chapter 1, section 23 - Text and Translation
Xenophon Chapter 1 wrote: ἀλλὰ δεῖ, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, πρὸς ταῦτα οὐχ ἧττον διαμάχεσθαι περὶ τῆς ἐλευθερίας ἢ πρὸς τοὺς σὺν ὅπλοις πειρωμένους καταδουλοῦσθαι. πολέμιοι μὲν οὖν ἤδη ὅταν καλοὶ κἀγαθοὶ ὄντες καταδουλώσωνταί τινας, πολλοὺς δὴ βελτίους ἠνάγκασαν εἶναι σωφρονίσαντες, καὶ ῥᾷον βιοτεύειν τὸν λοιπὸν χρόνον ἐποίησαν: αἱ δὲ τοιαῦται δέσποιναι αἰκιζόμεναι τὰ σώματα τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς καὶ τοὺς οἴκους οὔποτε λήγουσιν, ἔστ᾽ ἂν ἄρχωσιν αὐτῶν.
Wes Wood wrote: It is necessary, O Kritoboulus, not to fight less with these vices than we would fight for freedom or less than we would fight against those who have weapons and are trying to enslave us. In fact, the hostile ones actually, if they are beautiful and good after they enslave people, many times compel people to be better after they are chastened and cause them to live easier lives the remaining time: but mistresses such as these vices torture the bodies, lives, and households of men and they never leave them alone as long as they are in control of them.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Xenophon Chapter 1 Section 22 (with WW's numbers following some words) wrote: ἃ οὕτω χαλεπῶς ἄρχει τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὧν ἂν ἐπικρατήσωσιν10, ὥσθ᾽ ἕως11 μὲν ἂν ὁρῶσιν ἡβῶντας12 αὐτοὺς καὶ δυναμένους ἐργάζεσθαι, ἀναγκάζουσι13 φέρειν ἃ ἂν αὐτοὶ ἐργάσωνται καὶ τελεῖν εἰς τὰς αὑτῶν ἐπιθυμίας, ἐπειδὰν14 δὲ αὐτοὺς ἀδυνάτους αἴσθωνται15 ὄντας ἐργάζεσθαι διὰ τὸ γῆρας16, ἀπολείπουσι17 τούτους κακῶς18 γηράσκειν19, ἄλλοις δ᾽ αὖ πειρῶνται20 δούλοις χρῆσθαι21.
English from Perseus wrote:And so hard is the rule of these passions over every man who falls into their clutches, that so long as they see that he is strong and capable of work, they force him to pay over all the profits of his toil, and to spend it on their own desires; but no sooner do they find that he is too old to work, than they leave him to an old age of misery, and try to fasten the yoke on other shoulders.
Wes Wood wrote:... these vices* harshly govern the people they have conquered
Wes Wood's hints wrote:10 ἐπικρατήσωσιν: ἐπικρατεῖν-to rule over
You do not seem to agree with your own hint here. Which is the long-term action ἄρχειν or ἐπικρατεῖν? ἐπικρατεῖν "clutch down on" then ἄρχειν would be "wrestle for control", rather than a peaceful rule over a compliant kingdom.
Wes Wood wrote:ὥσθ᾽ ἕως11 μὲν ἂν ὁρῶσιν ἡβῶντας12 αὐτοὺς καὶ δυναμένους ἐργάζεσθαι, ἀναγκάζουσι13 φέρειν ἃ ἂν αὐτοὶ ἐργάσωνται καὶ τελεῖν εἰς τὰς αὑτῶν ἐπιθυμίας,
and so while their victims are in their prime and are able to work they also compel them to bring everything that they make to fulfill their desires,
Wes Wood's hints wrote:11 ἕως...ἂν: while or until (The aspect of the participles that follow make it clear which of these choices is intended. At least, it seems that way to me.);
12 ἡβῶντας: ἥβην?-to attain, to be in the prime of youth;that definition is standard for the dicionary, but here he is looking at the other end of the scale - the last part of that time of life, as they approach old age
13 ἀναγκάζουσι: ἀναγκάζειν-to force, compel
ἕως11 ... ἂν ὁρῶσιν is missing here, "until what so ever [time] that they continue to see" I think the aspect of this verb makes the difference. As I mentioned in September, I think that the present participle with the verb of seeing involves sensory input, and couldn't be otherwise (in most cases). τελεῖν is "pay tax" or the like, "charge duty" the relative pronoun sets the rate of the "tax" at whatever they "achieve for themselves from labours" (ἐργάζεσθαι). Perhaps you could understand φέρειν "bring" as almost with the sense of προσφέρειν "bring and give over".
ἐπειδὰν14 δὲ αὐτοὺς ἀδυνάτους αἴσθωνται15 ὄντας ἐργάζεσθαι διὰ τὸ γῆρας16, ἀπολείπουσι17 τούτους κακῶς18 γηράσκειν19, ἄλλοις δ᾽ αὖ πειρῶνται20 δούλοις χρῆσθαι21.
Wes Wood wrote:but whenever they perceive their victims are unable to work because of old age, they leave them to grow old wretchedly, and try to make others slaves.”
Wes Woods' hints wrote:14 ἐπειδὰν: whenever this is a once-off "when" not a recurrent one (ὅταν). Difficult to translate the difference, but you should see it in Greek at least.
15 αἴσθωνται: αἰσθάνεσθαι-to perceive, understand
16 γῆρας: old age
17 ἀπολείπουσι: ἀπολιμπάνειν-to leave I think the imagery introduced by this verb here is like a family whom one has invested one's life into, turning their parents out in old age. This passage warrants mention in LSJ alongside examples of family members deserting each other
18 κακῶς: badly, in an evil manner, wretchedly (I don’t think it will be needed, but if the person is familiar only with the New Testament, it could help) it is an adverb
19 γηράσκειν: to grow old
20 πειρῶνται: πείρειν (from πειράω not πείρω) to try, attempt, endeavor (easily confused words are always good to mention)
αὖ - again, anew, afresh, once more
21 χρῆσθαι: to make I don't think make gets it. It's like to use others as slaves / minions (sinister meaning). Its an ongoing action. Make someone something is more something that happens over a short time, but it seems this is something that will continue for quote some time after the making.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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