ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 7th, 2014, 3:48 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:
Xenophon, The estate manager, Chapter 1, §13 wrote:καὶ σὺ δέ μοι δοκεῖς οὕτω συνομολογεῖν,
The clausal clitic μοι however is just along for the ride. It is unaccented and thus phonologically non-prominent: as such, it is highly unsuited to convey emphasis.
Does the μοι need a special emphatic position to go with both verbs, or is commonsense that it should do, adequate suggestion that it in fact does?
There is an emphatic position (where καὶ σύ currently is), and what's nice about this word is that it also has an emphatic lexical form ἐμοί.
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 7th, 2014, 11:44 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:Half-right. καἰ σύ is in focus, the καί is non-conjunctive and is a focus particle here. The clausal clitic μοι however is just along for the ride. It is unaccented and thus phonologically non-prominent: as such, it is highly unsuited to convey emphasis.
Thank you for commenting on this. In instances like these, will the clitic usually be fronted along with the focal element?
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 7th, 2014, 12:33 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: It is actually not hard to believe, because I only added it to your hints later after you'd finished them.
Heh heh. It was late, but it wasn't THAT late! :lol: I was attempting to poke fun at my usual state of befuddlement and express my own disbelief at having a moment of clarity.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Despite what you have said about counting the way a friend is better than a cow, μᾶλλον is more naturally used of intensity (that is to say an overall thing), and πλείων of number (that is to say a group of individualities).
This is the unusual thing for me, the meaning that I have in mind seems almost between the two. I am taking this to mean that I don't fully appreciate how one or both of these words is normally used. (Note: I don't and won't *fully* appreciate any particular item...)
Stephen Hughes wrote:Sorry, just toying with you. I'm sure you will be able to recompose that second phrase in a more sensible manner. The point of my playful composition is to answer your next point about whether the subject or the complement takes the article ..
The humor is appreciated. 8-) Strangely enough, I was never one to use these "Smilies." They have grown on me during my time on the board.
Stephen Hughes wrote:It is somewhat flattering that you agree
I would be afraid that it meant you are likely incorrect. In my mind I am thinking "job description" but your options are a much better way of putting this in a translation.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Are you understanding this as a periphrastic perfect?
ὅσοι μὲν δὴ οἶκοι ἰδιωτῶν ηὐξημένοι εἰσὶν ἀπὸ πολέμου, ὅσοι δὲ τυράννων. To the best of my knowledge, I originally struggled with how to think about the household's increase without translating the owner as the subject of the verb. The rearrangement was meant to help with that, but I did not post what I had originally intended. By the time that I read it again, I already regretted the whole endeavor.
I don't think I read this as a perfect at all. In my mind it seems to be a gnomic utterance.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 9th, 2014, 7:57 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Half-right. καἰ σύ is in focus, the καί is non-conjunctive and is a focus particle here. The clausal clitic μοι however is just along for the ride. It is unaccented and thus phonologically non-prominent: as such, it is highly unsuited to convey emphasis.
Thank you for commenting on this. In instances like these, will the clitic usually be fronted along with the focal element?
This is not a reply to your question to Stephen. However, here are some verses that I have found that have helped me get a feeling for what he has mentioned and which you might like to look at, to prepare yourself to make sense of what somebody might say about this topic.

The general rule that I have learnt is that the pronoun follows the verb, bearing that in mind, I'm sure you will be able to see the pattern that emerges here in the following verses:
Matthew 16:15 wrote:Λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι;
Matthew 22:18 wrote:Γνοὺς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς τὴν πονηρίαν αὐτῶν εἶπεν, Τί με πειράζετε, ὑποκριταί;
Mathew 23:39 wrote:Λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ’ ἄρτι, ἕως ἂν εἴπητε, Εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Mark 12:15 wrote:Τί με πειράζετε;
Luke 9:18 wrote:Τίνα με λέγουσιν οἱ ὄχλοι εἶναι;
Luke 12:14 wrote:Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἄνθρωπε, τίς με κατέστησεν δικαστὴν ἢ μεριστὴν ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς;
John 7:19 vs. John 8:37 wrote:Τί με ζητεῖτε ἀποκτεῖναι; vs, ἀλλὰ ζητεῖτέ με ἀποκτεῖναι,
John 15:16 wrote:Οὐχ ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε, ἀλλ’ ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς, καὶ ἔθηκα ὑμᾶς, ἵνα ὑμεῖς ὑπάγητε καὶ καρπὸν φέρητε, καὶ ὁ καρπὸς ὑμῶν μένῃ·
1 Corinthians 16:6 wrote:ἵνα ὑμεῖς με προπέμψητε οὗ ἐὰν πορεύωμαι.
1 Corinthians 16:9 wrote:θύρα γάρ μοι ἀνέῳγεν μεγάλη καὶ ἐνεργής, καὶ ἀντικείμενοι πολλοί.
2 Corinthians 11:16 wrote:μή τίς με δόξῃ ἄφρονα εἶναι·
2 Corinthians 12:11 wrote:Γέγονα ἄφρων καυχώμενος· ὑμεῖς με ἠναγκάσατε·
Philippians 4:15 wrote:οὐδεμία μοι ἐκκλησία ἐκοινώνησεν εἰς λόγον δόσεως καὶ λήψεως, εἰ μὴ ὑμεῖς μόνοι·
Colossians 4:4 vs. Acts 16:30 wrote:ὡς δεῖ με λαλῆσαι. vs. Κύριοι, τί με δεῖ ποιεῖν ἵνα σωθῶ;
2 Timothy 1:16 wrote:ὅτι πολλάκις με ἀνέψυξεν,
2 Timothy 4:14 wrote:Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ χαλκεὺς πολλά μοι κακὰ ἐνεδείξατο·
Philemon 17 wrote:Εἰ οὖν με ἔχεις κοινωνόν, προσλαβοῦ αὐτὸν ὡς ἐμέ.
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 11th, 2014, 9:52 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:By marking with a question mark, I don't mean a look or bewilderment, but rather puzzlement. Let's set up some intelligent questions that when when the right key comes along the door to our understanding will finally open. Here are a few of my questions in my expexted order of probability, can you add others?
I am still working through this, but I will comment on one point that I might have missed due to the break in the text. "λέγειν ἔοικας, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅτι οὐδὲ τὸ ἀργύριόν ἐστι χρήματα, εἰ μή τις ἐπίσταιτο χρῆσθαι αὐτῷ. [13] καὶ σὺ δέ μοι δοκεῖς οὕτω συνομολογεῖν," As I look at this entire stretch, the transition to καὶ σὺ seems to be more of the result of a change in focus from εἰ μή τις ἐπίσταιτο χρῆσθαι αὐτῷ than an intended point of emphasis. Maybe μοι is fronted to suggest a subtle power dynamic of strength of position. "You seem to agree with me." What do you think?
Your way of (not) breaking the text does make more sense. The second person verb, the vocative, and the emphatic καὶ σὺ δέ μοι δοκεῖς construction really do belong together.
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 11th, 2014, 11:21 pm

Chapter 1, sections 16 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: ἀλλὰ γὰρ τὰ μὲν καλῶς ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ λέγεσθαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος: ἐκεῖνο δ᾽ ἡμῖν τί φαίνεται, ὁπόταν ὁρῶμέν τινας ἐπιστήμας μὲν ἔχοντας καὶ ἀφορμὰς ἀφ᾽ ὧν δύνανται ἐργαζόμενοι αὔξειν τοὺς οἴκους, αἰσθανώμεθα δὲ αὐτοὺς ταῦτα μὴ θέλοντας ποιεῖν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὁρῶμεν ἀνωφελεῖς οὔσας αὐτοῖς τὰς ἐπιστήμας; ἄλλο τι ἢ τούτοις αὖ οὔτε αἱ ἐπιστῆμαι χρήματά εἰσιν οὔτε τὰ κτήματα;


Hints: Look at these if you need to
τὰ...λέγεσθαι: One way to render this might be “the things which have been said.”
ἔμοιγε: Perhaps this can be thought of as the two separate words ἔμοι and γε.
ὁπόταν: whensoever. This is used with the subjunctive.
τινας: This is the subject of the participle ἔχοντας.
ἔχοντας: This participle takes two objects here.
ἐπιστήμας: skill (as in a trade) or generally, knowledge
ἀφορμὰς: resources or means
δύνανται: This verb can take an infinitive.
ἐργαζόμενοι: The relative time of the verb may be important here.
αἰσθανώμεθα: Here this could be rendered “we may notice.”
ἀνωφελεῖς: This is an adjective that may mean unprofitable or useless.
ἄλλο τι ἢ: “Is it anything else than.” This phrase is used to introduce a direct interrogative. You will likely have to be creative in how you translate this.
τούτοις: This word refers to the people who do not want to work.
οὔτε τὰ κτήματα: What verb is needed to complete this phrase.
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 11th, 2014, 11:34 pm

Wesley Wood Free Translation wrote: Kritoboulus replied, “Well, the things which have been said seem good to me, Socrates. But how does it seem to us when we see people who have the skills and resources that would allow them to increase their households if they would use them, but they don’t because they don’t want to do the work? If they don’t use them, their skills are useless, aren’t they? There is no way that knowledge or property can be considered wealth for these men, is there?
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote:ἀλλὰ γὰρ τὰ μὲν καλῶς ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ λέγεσθαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος: ἐκεῖνο δ᾽ ἡμῖν τί φαίνεται, ὁπόταν ὁρῶμέν τινας ἐπιστήμας μὲν ἔχοντας καὶ ἀφορμὰς ἀφ᾽ ὧν δύνανται ἐργαζόμενοι αὔξειν τοὺς οἴκους, αἰσθανώμεθα δὲ αὐτοὺς ταῦτα μὴ θέλοντας ποιεῖν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὁρῶμεν ἀνωφελεῖς οὔσας αὐτοῖς τὰς ἐπιστήμας; ἄλλο τι ἢ τούτοις αὖ οὔτε αἱ ἐπιστῆμαι χρήματά εἰσιν οὔτε τὰ κτήματα;
I took great liberties with the text, but I will post the more literal translation if you think it will help you evaluate it. I thought that the hints would give you enough of an idea of where I was struggling to get by.

I hope it was worth the wait. :oops:
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 11th, 2014, 11:54 pm

Chapter 1, section 16 - Observations and talk through (pre-hints)
I realise that life - both on and off the board - has its ebbs and flows and that in this case you're apparently you are in an ebb, but remember that although the surface appears to ebb, the same amount of water is still flowing in the stream, it just that either the moment is deep or the vision is broad and either way you need to spend time at this point of your life rather than move on quickly. Don't just remember and miss the easy progress and exciting fell of the flows and miss the serenity and opportunities for reflection offered by the ebbs.

Are you waiting for my pre-hints, here are a few things for you to consider about section 16....
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1, Section 16 wrote:ἀλλὰ γὰρ τὰ μὲν καλῶς ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ λέγεσθαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος: ἐκεῖνο δ᾽ ἡμῖν τί φαίνεται, ὁπόταν ὁρῶμέν τινας ἐπιστήμας μὲν ἔχοντας καὶ ἀφορμὰς ἀφ᾽ ὧν δύνανται ἐργαζόμενοι αὔξειν τοὺς οἴκους, αἰσθανώμεθα δὲ αὐτοὺς ταῦτα μὴ θέλοντας ποιεῖν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὁρῶμεν ἀνωφελεῖς οὔσας αὐτοῖς τὰς ἐπιστήμας; ἄλλο τι ἢ τούτοις αὖ οὔτε αἱ ἐπιστῆμαι χρήματά εἰσιν οὔτε τὰ κτήματα;
  • Making it clear who is speaking will really help to orientate a reader after the break from the text that we've had to discuss points arising from it. The incipit could be a good place to put that comment, or inthe first hint - basic step 1 orientation to the material.
  • ἀλλὰ γὰρ - Most readers of the New Testament have been taught to (unthinkingly) associate both ἀλλὰ and γὰρ with what a particular speaker has said before. While that might be true in narrative or an epistle, in a dialogue it could refer to the line of thought, not back to the previous utterance of the current speaker. The difference is subtle enough to need noting - do speakers interrupt each other,ἀλλὰ γὰρ = "as I was saying" or or does the dialogue continue being added to by the various participants, ἀλλὰ γὰρ = something that flows on from the general conversation "certainly". In this case - if you refer readers to the LSJ entry which contains the "Get out of jail free" phrase "freq. with words between" in it. If readers overlooked the order of the ἀλλὰ γὰρ because γὰρ is never first and then applied a clause level understanding of these two elements to the New Testament would have an actual effect on the understanding of verses in Matthew 9, Mark 10, John 5 etc. Be careful about what difficulties random new pieces of knowledge could cause, that's not what extra knowledge or insight is about - so a simple piece of guidance like "ἀλλὰ always proceeds the γὰρ, but they may be separated by a few words", is a good supplement to LSJ's entry.

    The order of Luke 23:15 is okay for this construction, and you may feel that it is appropriate to bring it up. (Other places that this might be the intended construction could be John 4:23, John 16:7, Acts 26:16, Romans 7:7, Romans 9:32, 10:16, 1 Corinthians 4:15, 9:2, 10:5, 2 Corinthians 3:14, 7:9, any way it depends whether the ideas are directly related or even have an antecedent)

    If you really wanted to you could point out that Mark 10:27 is a micro level construction not a dialogue level one, so this ἀλλὰ γὰρ is not the one meant there, in that case ἀλλὰ is ἀλλὰ, and γὰρ is γὰρ. (also Luke 20:38, John 6:27, perhaps John 6:64, 1 Corinthians 10:29, 14:2, 2 Corinthians 1:24, 3:6, 4:18, 12:14, et. al.) You can make your own responsible decision, based on a risk benefit analysis - is the risk great enough that guidance is needed, would others be benefited in reading Xenophon to know that Mark 10:27 was different? The overall aim is to let readers understand the New Testament and the Greek language better. Here, however, that knowledge may either be teacherly ostentation or pastorly preparation for the reading ahead. Whether it is officially recognised or not, to some degree, we who write publically about Greek and the New Testament are teachers of the language and (lay at least - unordained and non-professional) stewards / ministers of the word - so we carry both our everyday responsibility as teachers and the other one as well, as we write. Not such a big deal as to stop us, but something to bear in mind.
  • ὁπόταν could be related to known New Testament words, both οτ. root words and morphologically similar constructions with ἄν.
  • ἀφορμὰς some readers many confuse this in either of two ways... The meaning is different in the New Testament, and some may take it as a verb. You could either alert them to the difficulties or say what you think clearly - there is not much difference between the two approaches.
  • ἀφ᾽ ὧν say clearly what gender this is to avoid possible confusion, or give a way to determine it.
  • ταῦτα μὴ θέλοντας ποιεῖν would you like to comment on word order here? These constructions are much closer to English word order than they at first appear.
  • ἄλλο τι you could at least mention Acts 19:32 and 21:34, but it was probably actually a set phrase and understood as such.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 11th, 2014, 11:58 pm

I see you've posted while I was composing, well anyway I was going to delete this latest one but better stet. It approaches things in a different way.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 12th, 2014, 12:04 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Despite what you have said about counting the way a friend is better than a cow, μᾶλλον is more naturally used of intensity (that is to say an overall thing), and πλείων of number (that is to say a group of individualities).
This is the unusual thing for me, the meaning that I have in mind seems almost between the two. I am taking this to mean that I don't fully appreciate how one or both of these words is normally used. (Note: I don't and won't *fully* appreciate any particular item...)
Pointing out exact distinctions is one thing, expecting them to be used consistently in real life is folly.
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:It is somewhat flattering that you agree
I would be afraid that it meant you are likely incorrect. In my mind I am thinking "job description" but your options are a much better way of putting this in a translation.
:oops: Flattery is something one should always be suspicious of, but in this case it wasn't even flattery. :|
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Are you understanding this as a periphrastic perfect?
ὅσοι μὲν δὴ οἶκοι ἰδιωτῶν ηὐξημένοι εἰσὶν ἀπὸ πολέμου, ὅσοι δὲ τυράννων. To the best of my knowledge, I originally struggled with how to think about the household's increase without translating the owner as the subject of the verb. The rearrangement was meant to help with that, but I did not post what I had originally intended. By the time that I read it again, I already regretted the whole endeavor.

I don't think I read this as a perfect at all. In my mind it seems to be a gnomic utterance.
What? :? I'm sure that I've lost the plot here. Help me to understand if I lost it from my end or from yours.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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