ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 12th, 2014, 12:34 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Flattery is something one should always be suspicious of, but in this case it wasn't even flattery.
This is the type of thing that frustrates me about my communication skills (or lack thereof); I tend to convey the exact opposite of what I intend to. I meant to express that, if I were you, I would be worried that if I happen to agree with you that you may well be on the wrong side of the fence. Since I am sure that by now I am well known for being incorrect a fair percentage of the time... :lol:
Stephen Hughes wrote:What? I'm sure that I've lost the plot here. Help me to understand if I lost it from my end or from yours.
At this point I don't even remember the context. I will look at it again tomorrow and see if I can remember. To be honest, given my my self-assessment of my general performance the last two weeks, I probably did/understood/wrote something completely ridiculous. Is "pregnancy brain" contagious? :shock:
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 12th, 2014, 3:20 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:What? I'm sure that I've lost the plot here. Help me to understand if I lost it from my end or from yours.
At this point I don't even remember the context. I will look at it again tomorrow and see if I can remember. To be honest, given my my self-assessment of my general performance the last two weeks, I probably did/understood/wrote something completely ridiculous. Is "pregnancy brain" contagious? :shock:
Pregnancy brain, as you put it is quite interesting. In is a way of going inside oneself and being less aware of your surroundings. I took it as something troublesome for the first 3 or 4 children, but since then I have come to see it as part of the overall process. If you listen closely to your wife's stories later about what she was aware of and compare them to your own, you will notice how time referencing , and length of action in time, exactly who did what action, etc. get lost. Pregnancy brain as you put it is preparation for labour, when as thecontractionssset in and the woman brings all her attention to the pain, she can ride it with her own strength iron with some help to ride it. That eself-existence without reference to externals is interesting to be a part of. The experience of timelessness at birth is interesting to bring to how we consider language. At this time, yup have a great opportunity to contrast the easy you think with a way of thinking that is becoming progressively less logical. It is a rare opportunity to see how your logical understandings are built up and how they are expressed in language.

The ability to internalise ones thinking and get in tune with oneself is great for many kinds of learning too.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 12th, 2014, 8:58 pm

Chapter 1, section 17 - Text
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1, Section 17 wrote: περὶ δούλων μοι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ἐπιχειρεῖς, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, διαλέγεσθαι; οὐ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη, οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ εὐπατριδῶν ἐνίων γε δοκούντων εἶναι, οὓς ἐγὼ ὁρῶ τοὺς μὲν πολεμικάς, τοὺς δὲ καὶ εἰρηνικὰς ἐπιστήμας ἔχοντας, ταύτας δὲ οὐκ ἐθέλοντας ἐργάζεσθαι, ὡς μὲν ἐγὼ οἶμαι, δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ὅτι δεσπότας οὐκ ἔχουσιν.
Wes Wood mostly wooden translation wrote: Socrates was saying, “Are you attempting to argue with me concerning slaves, Kritoboulus?”
“I most certainly am not,” he was saying, “but some of the noblemen seem to be. I see people who indeed are skilled in warfare, but who also have knowledge of peace. But they do not want to do these things, so far as I suppose, for this reason: they do not have masters.”
I could use some help particularly with the phrase above in bold red. I think "πάνυ" is involved in my trouble though my general unfamiliarity with "ἐνίων" isn't helping. I wouldn't hate it if you were willing to do the hints for this section. I don't feel particularly good about what I have done.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 12th, 2014, 11:51 pm

Chapter 1, section 11 - Revisiting χωρεῖν in Matthew 19:11, 12
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1[color=#00BF00], Section 11[/color] wrote: τοῦτ᾽ἄρα φαίνεται ἡμῖν, ἀποδιδομένοις μὲν οἱ αὐλοὶ χρήματα, μὴ ἀποδιδομένοις δὲ ἀλλὰ κεκτημένοις οὔ, τοῖς μὴ ἐπισταμένοις αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι. καὶ ὁμολογουμένως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν χωρεῖ, ἐπείπερ εἴρηται τὰ ὠφελοῦντα χρήματα εἶναι. μὴ πωλούμενοι μὲν γὰρ οὐ χρήματά εἰσιν οἱ αὐλοί: οὐδὲν γὰρ χρήσιμοί εἰσι: πωλούμενοι δὲ χρήματα.
Hints (Look at these if you need to)
...
χωρεῖ[ν]: to make progress [/color]
Looking at χωρεῖν Matthew 19:12 in the light of this use of χωρεῖν in the sense of an argument making progress, suggests that the Evangelist is not suggestion people should receive emasculation, but that it is the argument that should be received
Matthew 19:11, 12 wrote:Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Οὐ πάντες χωροῦσιν τὸν λόγον τοῦτον, ἀλλ’ οἷς δέδοται .Εἰσὶν γὰρ εὐνοῦχοι, οἵτινες ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς ἐγεννήθησαν οὕτως· καί εἰσιν εὐνοῦχοι, οἵτινες εὐνουχίσθησαν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων· καί εἰσιν εὐνοῦχοι, οἵτινες εὐνούχισαν ἑαυτοὺς διὰ τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν. Ὁ δυνάμενος χωρεῖν χωρείτω.
The verb for receiving circumcision at least is λαμβάνειν as in John 7:23 Εἰ περιτομὴν λαμβάνει ἄνθρωπος ἐν σαββάτῳ,

In John 8:37 Οἶδα ὅτι σπέρμα Ἀβραάμ ἐστε· ἀλλὰ ζητεῖτέ με ἀποκτεῖναι, ὅτι ὁ λόγος ὁ ἐμὸς οὐ χωρεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν. We see a clear reference to a λόγος a speech or point being made.

A less technical meaning seems to be implied by ἀκούειν in John 6:60 τίς δύναται αὐτοῦ ἀκούειν;

As a translation, "making progress" seems to be a little inexact
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on November 13th, 2014, 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 12th, 2014, 11:59 pm

Chapter 1, section 18 - Text
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1, Section 18 wrote:καὶ πῶς ἄν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, δεσπότας οὐκ ἔχοιεν, εἰ εὐχόμενοι εὐδαιμονεῖν καὶ ποιεῖν βουλόμενοι ἀφ᾽ ὧν <ἂν> ἔχοιεν ἀγαθὰ ἔπειτα κωλύονται ποιεῖν ταῦτα ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων; καὶ τίνες δὴ οὗτοί εἰσιν, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος, οἳ ἀφανεῖς ὄντες ἄρχουσιν αὐτῶν;
[quote="Wes "Wood"en Translation"]
“And how is it that they do not have rulers,” was saying Socrates, “if they pray to be well off and to do what they want to do from the good things they have and then are hindered from doing those [lit. these] things by their rulers?”
“So then, who are these,” was saying Kritoboulus, “who are hidden while ruling them?”[/quote]

I feel like I understand this text except for the underlined part. I intend to review some grammar points from this section and the last section and post hints for them both tomorrow if all goes well.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 13th, 2014, 12:22 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, sections 16 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: ἀλλὰ γὰρ τὰ μὲν καλῶς ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ λέγεσθαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος: ἐκεῖνο δ᾽ ἡμῖν τί φαίνεται, ὁπόταν ὁρῶμέν τινας ἐπιστήμας μὲν ἔχοντας καὶ ἀφορμὰς ἀφ᾽ ὧν δύνανται ἐργαζόμενοι αὔξειν τοὺς οἴκους, αἰσθανώμεθα δὲ αὐτοὺς ταῦτα μὴ θέλοντας ποιεῖν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὁρῶμεν ἀνωφελεῖς οὔσας αὐτοῖς τὰς ἐπιστήμας; ἄλλο τι ἢ τούτοις αὖ οὔτε αἱ ἐπιστῆμαι χρήματά εἰσιν οὔτε τὰ κτήματα;


Hints: Look at these if you need to
τὰ...λέγεσθαι: One way to render this might be “the things which have been said.” Render is render, but could you explain the construction?
ἐκεῖνο δ᾽ ἡμῖν τί φαίνεται I don't think this is self-evident. It probably needs some explanation
ἔμοιγε: Perhaps this can be thought of as the two separate words ἔμοι and γε. To say that is to suggest that the two parts have separate syntactic functions in this phrase. If they are left together it suggests that the γε has the sole purpose of strengthening the ἔμοι.
ὁπόταν: whensoever. This is used with the subjunctive.
τινας: This is the subject of the participle ἔχοντας. I'm not so sure about that... In the phrase ὁπόταν ὁρῶμέν τινας ἐπιστήμας μὲν ἔχοντας, the position of the μὲν suggests otherwise. See how you would understand it if the μὲν were placed differently ὁπόταν ὁρῶμέν τινας μὲν ἐπιστήμας ἔχοντας. Reading with my eyes, at second glance, I took it as you have, but reading it with my ears, I hear the break that groups τινας ἐπιστήμας together into one sense unit. 2 Thessalonians 3:11 is probably the closes NT passage to this Ἀκούομεν γάρ τινας περιπατοῦντας ἐν ὑμῖν ἀτάκτως, and in that the τινας περιπατοῦντας is placed together, but in 2 Corinthians 10:2 λογίζομαι τολμῆσαι ἐπί τινας τοὺς λογιζομένους ἡμᾶς ὡς κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦντας. they are separated (in fact joined) by the article, and in Mark 7:2 καὶ ἰδόντες τινὰς τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ κοιναῖς χερσίν, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ἀνίπτοις, ἐσθίοντας ἄρτους ἐμέμψαντο., a whole phrase separates them, which suggests a different basis for this contruction.
ἔχοντας: This participle takes two objects here.
ἐπιστήμας: skill (as in a trade) or generally, knowledge
ἀφορμὰς: resources or means as opposed to "occasion or opportunity" in the New Testament. Leaving this without that comment about the difference in meaning will send some to esp. Romans 7:8 and 11 and 2 Corinthians 11:2 and reading them in this different material sense. You may want to discuss how taking them here in Xenophon in a material sense and in the New Testament in predominantly a temporal sense is justified. Or you may not.
δύνανται: This verb can regularly takes an infinitive.
ἐργαζόμενοι: The relative time of the verb may be important here. I don't know, but here is some of my thinking about it... Matthew 12:34 Γεννήματα ἐχιδνῶν, πῶς δύνασθε ἀγαθὰ λαλεῖν, πονηροὶ ὄντες; is not really a very suitable example of similar usage because it uses the participle of the verb to be (cf. Romans 8:8). in Acts 27:12 εἴ πως δύναιντο καταντήσαντες εἰς Φοίνικα παραχειμάσαι, the aorist is used, at Hebrews 2:18 Ἐν ᾧ γὰρ πέπονθεν αὐτὸς πειρασθείς, δύναται τοῖς πειραζομένοις βοηθῆσαι., it is similarly used.

Mark 2:19 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Μὴ δύνανται οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ νυμφῶνος, ἐν ᾧ ὁ νυμφίος μετ’ αὐτῶν ἐστιν, νηστεύειν; Ὅσον χρόνον μεθ’ ἑαυτῶν ἔχουσιν τὸν νυμφίον, οὐ δύνανται νηστεύειν· is interesting because of the present participle used with the negative, where is seems what I have noticed to be the tendency to use of the aorist infinitive is put aside because of the actual conditions of the situation. That is to say that I think the use of a present participle here is conventional rather than significant (in fact what I really think is that it is an adjectival participle - but there is really not much difference between an adjectival participle that is true for at least the duration of the main verb and an adjective which is true regardless of the duration of the main verb. At least not in the context of reading a single phrase), being able while working = "working makes us able"???.

For a construction with similar verbs, we could look at John 9:8 Ἐμὲ δεῖ ἐργάζεσθαι τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πέμψαντός με ἕως ἡμέρα ἐστίν· ἔρχεται νύξ, ὅτε οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐργάζεσθαι.

αἰσθανώμεθα: Here this could be rendered “we may notice.”
ἀνωφελεῖς: This is an adjective that may mean unprofitable or useless.
ἄλλο τι ἢ: “Is it anything else than.” This phrase is used to introduce a direct interrogative. You will likely have to be creative in how you translate this. I think more help is needed here.
τούτοις: This word refers to the people who do not want to work.
οὔτε τὰ κτήματα: What verb is needed to complete this phrase.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 14th, 2014, 11:42 pm

Chapter 1, section 17 - Text
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote:περὶ δούλων μοι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ἐπιχειρεῖς, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, διαλέγεσθαι; οὐ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη, οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ εὐπατριδῶν ἐνίων γε δοκούντων εἶναι, οὓς ἐγὼ ὁρῶ τοὺς μὲν πολεμικάς, τοὺς δὲ καὶ εἰρηνικὰς ἐπιστήμας ἔχοντας, ταύτας δὲ οὐκ ἐθέλοντας ἐργάζεσθαι, ὡς μὲν ἐγὼ οἶμαι, δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ὅτι δεσπότας οὐκ ἔχουσιν.



Hints: Look at these if you need to

ἐπιχειρέω: This verb can take an infinitive and when it does it may mean endeavor or attempt to do.
διαλέγεσθαι: This word likely means “to have a conversation” or “ to argue” here. It may take a dative of person.
οὐ μὰ Δί᾽: a strong negation οὐ μὰ is a strong negation and it is sometimes followed by an accusative of a deity/thing being appealed to. In this case, Zeus/Jupiter.
οὐκ ἔγωγε: ἔγωγε is an intensive form of ἔγω. This phrase may be understood as having an implied “be” verb. “I am not.”
καὶ πάνυ: This phrase may mean something like “certainly.”
εὐπατριδῶν: Men with noble fathers. Maybe something like “noblemen” would be appropriate. I struggled with why this was a genitive, but then I realized that Kritoboulus was responding to the initial prepositional phrase “περὶ δούλων.” “No, I am not [talking about slaves] but [περί] noblemen.”
ἐνίων: “some”
γε: I am not completely certain about this. I believe it is intensifying “ἐνίων.” I have decided to bring this out by italicizing “ἐνίων.” The glosses “at least” or “at any rate” may also be appropriate.
δοκούντων: I believe this refers back to “εὐπατριδῶν.” It is capable of taking an infinitive. Here it may mean something like "they are reputed."
τοὺς πολεμικάς: “men who are skilled in war”
τοὺς εἰρηνικὰς: “men who are peaceful.”
ὁρῶ τοὺς ἔχοντας ἐπιστήμας μὲν τοὺς πολεμικάς δὲ καὶ τοὺς εἰρηνικὰς: Maybe seeing the text in this arrangement would help if you get stuck. Pay attention to the μὲν... δὲ structure. It appears to me that there are two different categories of people who are in view each with different skills.
οἶμαι: “I think, suppose, or believe.” The phrase this verb is part of is a parenthetical expression.
δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο: I understand this as “for this reason.”
δεσπότας: “lords” or “masters”
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 14th, 2014, 11:55 pm

Chapter 1, section 17 - Free Translation
Wes Wood wrote:Socrates was saying, “Are you attempting to discuss slaves with me, Kritoboulus?”
“I most certainly am not,” he was saying, “but, rather, I am talking about some who are reputed to be noblemen. I see that some noblemen have knowledge of warfare or peace, but they do not want to make use of these skills, so far as I suppose, for this reason: they do not have masters.”
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 14th, 2014, 11:59 pm

I am sure these are far from perfect, but I am confident that I have a better understanding of the text today than I did yesterday...and much better than Wednesday. Thanks for being patient.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 15th, 2014, 2:31 pm

Chapter 1, section 17 - Text

My comments about this are really quite trivial compared to your great effort here...
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote:περὶ δούλων μοι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ἐπιχειρεῖς, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, διαλέγεσθαι; οὐ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη, οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ εὐπατριδῶν ἐνίων γε δοκούντων εἶναι, οὓς ἐγὼ ὁρῶ τοὺς μὲν πολεμικάς, τοὺς δὲ καὶ εἰρηνικὰς ἐπιστήμας ἔχοντας, ταύτας δὲ οὐκ ἐθέλοντας ἐργάζεσθαι, ὡς μὲν ἐγὼ οἶμαι, δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ὅτι δεσπότας οὐκ ἔχουσιν.



Hints: Look at these if you need to

ἐπιχειρέω: This verb can take an infinitive and when it does it may mean endeavor or attempt to do.
διαλέγεσθαι: This word likely means “to have a conversation” or “ to argue” here. It may take a dative of person. Are you unsure yourself? Or making a suggestion as to what to think about?
οὐ μὰ Δί᾽: a strong negation οὐ μὰ is a strong negation and it is sometimes followed by an accusative of a deity/thing being appealed to. In this case, Zeus/Jupiter.
οὐκ ἔγωγε: ἔγωγε is an intensive form of ἔγω. This phrase may be understood as having an implied “be” verb. “I am not.”
καὶ πάνυ: This phrase may mean something like “certainly.”
εὐπατριδῶν: Men with noble fathers. Maybe something like “noblemen” would be appropriate. I struggled with why this was a genitive, but then I realized that Kritoboulus was responding to the initial prepositional phrase “περὶ δούλων.” “No, I am not [talking about slaves] but [περί] noblemen.”
ἐνίων: “some”
γε: I am not completely certain about this. I believe it is intensifying “ἐνίων.” I have decided to bring this out by italicizing “ἐνίων.” The glosses “at least” or “at any rate” may also be appropriate.
δοκούντων: I believe this refers back to “εὐπατριδῶν.” It is capable of taking an infinitive. Here it may mean something like "they are reputed."
τοὺς πολεμικάς: “men who are skilled in war”
τοὺς εἰρηνικὰς: “men who are peaceful.”
ὁρῶ τοὺς ἔχοντας ἐπιστήμας μὲν τοὺς πολεμικάς δὲ καὶ τοὺς εἰρηνικὰς: Maybe seeing the text in this arrangement would help if you get stuck. Pay attention to the μὲν... δὲ structure. It appears to me that there are two different categories of people who are in view each with different skills.
οἶμαι: “I think, suppose, or believe.” The phrase this verb is part of is a parenthetical expression.
δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο: I understand this as “for this reason.” I think it means, "for this very same reason"
δεσπότας: “lords” or “masters” Is the context governmental power, or is the context a master-slave relationship? That would help you choose the correct word / sense for the English.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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