ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 15th, 2014, 2:34 pm

Wes Wood wrote:I am sure these are far from perfect, but I am confident that I have a better understanding of the text today than I did yesterday...and much better than Wednesday. Thanks for being patient.
It takes time for the brain to process language, even when it is being handle within the crutches of the logicians' grammar system.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 15th, 2014, 3:23 pm

διαλέγεσθαι: This word likely means “to have a conversation” or “ to argue” here. It may take a dative of person.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Are you unsure yourself?
I am unsure if it always takes a dative.


δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο: I understand this as “for this reason.”
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think it means, "for this very same reason"
That definitely makes it clear that the sense of "αὐτὸ" has been brought out. I think "for this reason" is an intensified "because" and that is why I used this phrase here. I am sure how emphatic the original phrase is. Your version is likely better.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Is the context governmental power, or is the context a master-slave relationship? That would help you choose the correct word / sense for the English.
This is where your experience as a language teacher really shines through. I do not consciously think about the differences between these words. You are able to both think about the process that lead to my decision and explain to a reader. I am impressed!
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 16th, 2014, 6:20 am

Wes Wood wrote:διαλέγεσθαι: This word likely means “to have a conversation” or “ to argue” here. It may take a dative of person.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Are you unsure yourself?
I am unsure if it always takes a dative.
The "best practice" approach is to look at each construction or usage of a verb in turn, and not to try to be comprehensive and introduce all the possible uses at the same time. Little steps produce more lasting results. If we use a test like; "How much do learners actually and effectively master as a result of teaching?", then the one aspect (general meaning of the word) at a time approach wins hands down.
Wes Wood wrote:δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο: I understand this as “for this reason.”
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think it means, "for this very same reason"
That definitely makes it clear that the sense of "αὐτὸ" has been brought out. I think "for this reason" is an intensified "because" and that is why I used this phrase here. I am sure how emphatic the original phrase is. Your version is likely better.
Many years ago, I used to be a wizz at conjugation, naming parts and reciting rules, etc. but don't do that much now. But here, let's get a bit analyitical again... What is your grammatical understanding of the phrase that is being adequately or better rendered by these various English phrases?
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Is the context governmental power, or is the context a master-slave relationship? That would help you choose the correct word / sense for the English.
This is where your experience as a language teacher really shines through. I do not consciously think about the differences between these words. You are able to both think about the process that lead to my decision and explain to a reader. I am impressed!
Well, rather than falling back on my usual knee-jerk aversion to accepting praise, let me say something about this.

Actually, I was hoping that you'd think outside the box, and reject what I was saying or questioning here!

One of the things that I suppose I should have understood with Hebrew, and am coming more and more to understand with Chinese is that native speakers don't make the same sort of distinctions that we see in dictionaries. It seems that context itself makes the distinctions in sense that are listed as separate entries in dictionaries. To some extent they are artificial distinctions - situational renderings of a Greek word dependent on the needs of English renderings. A more full way to list those meanings that are apparently not distinct in the minds of the speakers of that language, but are needed in the minds of non-native speakers would be better expressed by phrases such as, "in the context of <a definable situation> English renders <the word> as <word required by English>, but in the context of <a different definable situation>, English renders <the word> as <different word required by English>. It is a little difficult for dictionary users to decypher dictionary entries in this regard - whether the distinctions are actually in the original speakers / listeners minds (rather than situational ones) or whether they are outright artificial distinctions needed by the second language of the dictionary users, unless the users themselves are very familiar with the language. The experience that you are talking about is not only as a teacher, but also as a learner / user. One of the skills of a lexicographer is to carry out then encapsulate the results of an analysis of contexts and provide adequate / relevant renderings / explanations into the target language of the words for those contexts.

In the case of this word δεσπότας used in the context of both the ruling class and the holding of slaves, the decontextualised meaning is what is being played on. Well, okay, it is not really decontextualised, but rather it is either of two possibilities. The first is that the meaning is being used as generically as possible so that it can suit either of the two and a parallelism is being made between the two situations OR the second is that the individual contextual meanings are being played against each other to make a point. Perhaps there are other ways of taking this type of thing, but in my opinion, it is that the distinction in English is artificial and actually understanding the Greek in itself involves understanding, δεσπότας as δεσπότας, and the distiction is δεσπότας (in the context of a relation to slaves) vs. δεσπότας (in the context of a relation to social power). Further looking at contexts will give clues as the nature of the relationships - both in terms of similarities and differences.

While we could take that as a necessary evil, what are the long-term effects of that that will later require "correction"? One of the ways to approach that is that in situations like this "where knowing Greek makes a difference" can be explained. What is really happening then is that the artificial distinction that is usually helpful, here obscures the "word play".
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 20th, 2014, 11:21 pm

Chapter 1, section 18 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: καὶ πῶς ἄν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, δεσπότας οὐκ ἔχοιεν, εἰ εὐχόμενοι εὐδαιμονεῖν καὶ ποιεῖν βουλόμενοι ἀφ᾽ ὧν <ἂν> ἔχοιεν ἀγαθὰ ἔπειτα κωλύονται ποιεῖν ταῦτα ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων; καὶ τίνες δὴ οὗτοί εἰσιν, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος, οἳ ἀφανεῖς ὄντες ἄρχουσιν αὐτῶν;



Hints: Look at these if you need to
δεσπότας- masters or lords (For the time being. I am digesting, but have indigestion...)
ἔχοιεν- This is a third person plural optative. “They have”
εὐχόμενοι- I understand this as having an important temporal component based partly on the use of “ἔπειτα” (which I understand to mean “then”) later in the reading.
εὐδαιμονεῖν- “to be well off” I took this as the first object of “εὐχόμενοι.” (I am not sure that this is the correct way to state this.)
ποιεῖν- I took this as the second object of “εὐχόμενοι”
βουλόμενοι- I believe this modifies ποιεῖν.
ἀφ᾽ ὧν- I am having trouble with how this phrase relates to what precedes it. I take “ποιεῖν βουλόμενοι” to mean “to do [the things] they want [to do]” and “ἀφ᾽ ὧν” to mean in this context the equivalent of “which.”
ἔχοιεν- I was initially wrong here. I believe “they bring” is necessary for the context here.
ἀγαθὰ- I took this as a noun.
καὶ τίνες δὴ- one way to take this might be “and who exactly”
οἳ ἀφανεῖς ὄντες- “the unseen beings”
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 20th, 2014, 11:23 pm

I am not confident in what I have done, and my hints reflect that. I am open to revision as necessary before I firm them up. I was trying to give what I think so that you can help with any major misunderstandings. I feel there may be many.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 21st, 2014, 10:50 pm

I am forced to admit that I am going to have to lock my previous effort in. I feel like I am missing something, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.

Wes Wood wrote:
That definitely makes it clear that the sense of "αὐτὸ" has been brought out. I think "for this reason" is an intensified "because" and that is why I used this phrase here. I am sure how emphatic the original phrase is. Your version is likely better.

This should have read: I am unsure how emphatic the original phrase is.

I understand δι᾽ αὐτὸ τοῦτο: "δι" as because/on account of and "αὐτὸ" as intensifying "τοῦτο." Sorry for the formatting. I am stuck with only a phone.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 22nd, 2014, 1:31 am

Chapter 1, section 19 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [19] ἀλλὰ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, οὐκ ἀφανεῖς εἰσιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ φανεροί. καὶ ὅτι πονηρότατοί γέ εἰσιν οὐδὲ σὲ λανθάνουσιν, εἴπερ πονηρίαν γε νομίζεις ἀργίαν τ᾽ εἶναι καὶ μαλακίαν ψυχῆς καὶ ἀμέλειαν.






Hints: Look at these if you need to
μὰ Δί᾽,: This is an oath. “By Jupiter.” I understand it here as more of an interjection.
καὶ πάνυ: These should be taken together and serve to strengthen a verb. What verb should be supplied for this construction to make sense?
πονηρότατοί: This is a superlative. “Grievous”
λανθάνουσιν: mid/passive: they let escape/forget active: they escape [just to see the different meaning in the different voices. This is for me. :) ] This verb will take an accusative of person here.
εἴπερ: if indeed, if really
πονηρίαν: wickedness, vice

Note: I am struggling to explain the part below. I would benefit from your assistance here, because I don’t think what I have written matches what I understand. I will try to make explicit exactly what I am thinking in my very free translation, and we can go from there if you are amenable.

νομίζεις: I took “ἀργίαν” as the object of this verb.
ἀργίαν: want of employment, laziness, idleness
εἶναι: I took “πονηρίαν” as the object of this verb.
τ᾽... καὶ... καὶ: I took the elements introduced by these as clarifying/explaining “ἀργίαν”
μαλακίαν ψυχῆς: “softness of life” I am unsure if this is referring to complacency or cowardice. I favor the former at the moment.
ἀμέλειαν: indifference, negligence
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 22nd, 2014, 2:10 am

Chapter 1, section 19 - Text and Translation
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [19] ἀλλὰ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, οὐκ ἀφανεῖς εἰσιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ φανεροί. καὶ ὅτι πονηρότατοί γέ εἰσιν οὐδὲ σὲ λανθάνουσιν, εἴπερ πονηρίαν γε νομίζεις ἀργίαν τ᾽ εἶναι καὶ μαλακίαν ψυχῆς καὶ ἀμέλειαν.
Wes Wood Translation: Partly rigid and partly free wrote:“But by Jupiter they are not unseen,” Socrates was saying, “but they are evident to all, and because they are most grievous they can’t possibly escape your notice either, if indeed you consider laziness to be wickedness, whether that laziness manifests itself as the complacency that results from a life of luxury or general negligence.
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » November 22nd, 2014, 2:27 pm

Chapter 1, section 20 - Text, Hints, and Translation
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [20] καὶ ἄλλαι δ᾽ εἰσὶν ἀπατηλαί τινες δέσποιναι προσποιούμεναι ἡδοναὶ εἶναι, κυβεῖαί τε καὶ ἀνωφελεῖς ἀνθρώπων ὁμιλίαι, αἳ προϊόντος τοῦ χρόνου καὶ αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἐξαπατηθεῖσι καταφανεῖς γίγνονται ὅτι λῦπαι ἄρα ἦσαν ἡδοναῖς περιπεπεμμέναι, αἳ διακωλύουσιν αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ τῶν ὠφελίμων ἔργων κρατοῦσαι.








Hints: Look at these if you need to
ἀπατηλαί- deceptive; producing illusions
δέσποιναι- mistresses
προσποιούμεναι- they are taken on; I believe the temporal aspect of this participle is important here.
ἡδοναὶ- pleasures
κυβεῖαί τε καὶ ἀνωφελεῖς ἀνθρώπων ὁμιλίαι This is one phrase. I have provided multiple glosses for the words below. Don’t get too set in one mode of thinking (like I did) from the start. If you get stuck, see the note at the bottom of these hints.
κυβεῖαί- casting die; slight of hand; trickery
ἀνωφελεῖς- useless
ὁμιλίαι- intercourse; company; companionship
αἳ- this is likely acting as a relative pronoun
προϊόντος τοῦ χρόνου- as time goes on
ἐξαπατηθεῖσι- they are being thoroughly deceived
καταφανεῖς- clearly seen; in sight; evident
λῦπαι- pains
περιπεπεμμέναι- perhaps idiomatically “the things that one has participated in”
διακωλύουσιν- they prevent
ὠφελίμων- useful
κρατοῦσαι- to be master over; to maintain; (figuratively) to control?
τε κυβεῖαί καὶ ὁμιλίαι ἀνθρώπων ἀνωφελεῖς
Wes Wood Translation wrote: and other things are deceptive when they are taken on as mistresses for pleasure, both gambling and the companionship of useless men, but as time goes on it becomes evident even to the ones who are being thoroughly deceived that the pleasures which were derived then [idiomatically] were pains that were preventing them from being able maintain useful work.
I can't escape wanting to translate the last phrase "that keeps them from holding a steady job." I don't believe that adequately captures what is being said, but that is what is echoing in my brain. :|
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 23rd, 2014, 12:43 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 18 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: καὶ πῶς ἄν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, δεσπότας οὐκ ἔχοιεν, εἰ εὐχόμενοι εὐδαιμονεῖν καὶ ποιεῖν βουλόμενοι ἀφ᾽ ὧν <ἂν> ἔχοιεν ἀγαθὰ ἔπειτα κωλύονται ποιεῖν ταῦτα ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων; καὶ τίνες δὴ οὗτοί εἰσιν, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος, οἳ ἀφανεῖς ὄντες ἄρχουσιν αὐτῶν;
Hints: Look at these if you need to
δεσπότας- masters or lords (For the time being. I am digesting, but have indigestion...)
ἔχοιεν- This is a third person plural optative for indicative. “They have”
εὐχόμενοι- I understand this as having an important temporal component based partly on the use of “ἔπειτα” (which I understand to mean “then”) later in the reading that may be so, but it is relative to the main verb. Aspect in ifinite verbs has an absolute temporal significance while in participles it is relative..
εὐδαιμονεῖν- “to be well off” I took this as the first object of “εὐχόμενοι.” (I am not sure that this is the correct way to state this.)
ποιεῖν- I took this as the second object of “εὐχόμενοι”
βουλόμενοι- I believe this modifies ποιεῖν.
ἀφ᾽ ὧν- I am having trouble with how this phrase relates to what precedes it. I take “ποιεῖν βουλόμενοι” to mean “to do [the things] they want [to do]” and “ἀφ᾽ ὧν” to mean in this context the equivalent of “which.”
ἔχοιεν- I was initially wrong here. I believe “they bring” is necessary for the context here.
κωλύονται ποιεῖν ταῦτα ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων - this is back into the indicative (even though it is in indirect speech) because Xen. takes it as something that can be easily observed, not a proposition of one of the speakers.
ἀγαθὰ- I took this as a noun.
καὶ τίνες δὴ- one way to take this might be “and who exactly”
οἳ ἀφανεῖς ὄντες- “the unseen beings”no. look at the accent ἀφανεῖς ὄντες is a circumstantial participle. "while being unseen", "which nobody ever saw" οἳ ἀφανεῖς ὄντες ἄρχουσιν αὐτῶν = "who rule them, despite the fact that there is no scientific evidence that they actually even exist".
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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