ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
Forum rules
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 29th, 2014, 1:31 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 19 - Text and Translation
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [19] ἀλλὰ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, οὐκ ἀφανεῖς εἰσιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ φανεροί. καὶ ὅτι πονηρότατοί γέ εἰσιν οὐδὲ σὲ λανθάνουσιν, εἴπερ πονηρίαν γε νομίζεις ἀργίαν τ᾽ εἶναι καὶ μαλακίαν ψυχῆς καὶ ἀμέλειαν.
Wes Wood Translation: Partly rigid and partly free wrote:“But by Jupiter they are not unseen,” Socrates was saying, “but they are evident to all, and because they are most grievous they can’t possibly escape your notice either, if indeed you consider laziness to be wickedness, whether that laziness manifests itself as the complacency that results from a life of luxury or general negligence.
οὐκ ἀφανεῖς - not unseen - if there was a distinction to be made between ἀφανής and ἀόρατος, I think that only sight is involved in ὁρατός-ἀόρατος, whereas φανερός-ἀφανής/-κρυπτός could involve not only ὁρατός-ἀόρατος, but also perhaps ἁπτός-ἄναπτος and ἀκουστός-οὐκ ἀκουστός. In other words ἀφανής means not on show, which means they are ἀόρατος, ἄναπτος and οὐκ ἀκουστός, and could imply that they are οὐκ κρυπτός.

οὐδὲ σὲ λανθάνουσιν - escape your notice is okay, not be observed by you is also okay. It depends how you work it with οὐκ ἀφανεῖς and φανεροί.

whether that laziness manifests itself as the complacency that results from a life of luxury or general negligence - how did a simple list become this?
0 x


Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 29th, 2014, 8:01 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 20 - Text, Hints, and Translation
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [20] καὶ ἄλλαι δ᾽ εἰσὶν ἀπατηλαί τινες δέσποιναι προσποιούμεναι ἡδοναὶ εἶναι, κυβεῖαί τε καὶ ἀνωφελεῖς ἀνθρώπων ὁμιλίαι, αἳ προϊόντος τοῦ χρόνου καὶ αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἐξαπατηθεῖσι καταφανεῖς γίγνονται ὅτι λῦπαι ἄρα ἦσαν ἡδοναῖς περιπεπεμμέναι, αἳ διακωλύουσιν αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ τῶν ὠφελίμων ἔργων κρατοῦσαι.
Hints: Look at these if you need to
ἀπατηλαί- deceptive; producing illusions
δέσποιναι- mistresses
προσποιούμεναι- they are taken on; I believe the temporal aspect of this participle is important here. Please explicate.
ἡδοναὶ- pleasures
κυβεῖαί τε καὶ ἀνωφελεῖς ἀνθρώπων ὁμιλίαι This is one phrase. I have provided multiple glosses for the words below. Don’t get too set in one mode of thinking (like I did) from the start. If you get stuck, see the note at the bottom of these hints. and other things are deceptive when they are taken on as mistresses for pleasure I'm not sure if I agree or disagree on this. ἄλλαι δ᾽ εἰσὶν ἀπατηλαί τινες δέσποιναι προσποιούμεναι ἡδοναὶ εἶναι There are certain other deceptive mistresses who are taken on as pleasures.
κυβεῖαί- casting die; slight of hand; trickery dice playing
ἀνωφελεῖς- useless This is not a strange word to be used with people, as it would be in English. Perhaps, "who serve no purpose in society" is a less ambiguous way to render it. companionship of useless men ἀνωφελεῖς is not genitive. It goes with the ὁμιλία.
ὁμιλίαι- intercourse; company; companionship
αἳ- this is likely acting as a relative pronoun
προϊόντος τοῦ χρόνου- as time goes on
ἐξαπατηθεῖσι- they are being thoroughly deceived
αἳ προϊόντος τοῦ χρόνου καὶ αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἐξαπατηθεῖσι καταφανεῖς γίγνονται which become very evident as time goes on, even to those who are being deceived, are sorrows pretending to be pleasures.
καταφανεῖς- clearly seen; in sight; evident
λῦπαι- pains
περιπεπεμμέναι- perhaps idiomatically “the things that one has participated in”
διακωλύουσιν- they prevent
ὠφελίμων- useful
κρατοῦσαι- to be master over; to maintain; (figuratively) to control?
αἳ διακωλύουσιν αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ τῶν ὠφελίμων ἔργων κρατοῦσαι = αἳ διακωλύουσιν αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ [τοῦ] τῶν ὠφελίμων ἔργων κρατοῦσαι
τε κυβεῖαί καὶ ὁμιλίαι ἀνθρώπων ἀνωφελεῖς
Wes Wood Translation wrote: and other things are deceptive when they are taken on as mistresses for pleasure, both gambling and the companionship of useless men, but as time goes on it becomes evident even to the ones who are being thoroughly deceived that the pleasures which were derived then [idiomatically] were pains that were preventing them from being able maintain useful work.
I can't escape wanting to translate the last phrase "that keeps them from holding a steady job." I don't believe that adequately captures what is being said, but that is what is echoing in my brain. :|
That is what one would logically take it as. Try how my addition of the τοῦ let's you take things as.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 29th, 2014, 8:11 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 21 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [21] ἀλλὰ καὶ ἄλλοι, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐργάζεσθαι μὲν οὐ κωλύονται ὑπὸ τούτων, ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ σφοδρῶς πρὸς τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἔχουσι καὶ μηχανᾶσθαι προσόδους: ὅμως δὲ καὶ τοὺς οἴκους κατατρίβουσι καὶ ἀμηχανίαις συνέχονται.
Wes Wood wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:Kritoboulus was saying, “But there [are] also others, O Socrates, who indeed are not being hindered from working* by these [vices], and who are very motivated to work [because] they have to procure for themselves an income: but who, nevertheless, squander their households and are burdened with hardships.”
*Again going back to the last section, I feel this is probably a more specific rendering than the meaning of the word in the actual text.
Hints: Look at these if you need to
I don't think the grammar of this section should present too much of a challenge. (That is, if I understand it myself. :| )
τούτων - this is masculine or neuter - what gender is "vices"?
σφοδρῶς: I translated this as “motivated” but am not sure that this word can take this meaning. I think it is a general strengthening word. Here it is in a good sense.
μηχανᾶσθαι: to procure for oneself
προσόδους: an income
ὅμως: nevertheless
κατατρίβουσι: they squander
ἀμηχανίαις: hardships
συνέχονται: they are burdened
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 29th, 2014, 2:15 pm

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 21 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [21] ἀλλὰ καὶ πάνυ σφοδρῶς πρὸς τὸ ἐργάζεσθαι ἔχουσι καὶ μηχανᾶσθαι προσόδους:
Wes Wood wrote:and who are very motivated to work [because] they have to procure for themselves an income
σφοδρῶς: I translated this as “motivated” but am not sure that this word can take this meaning. I think it is a general strengthening word. Here it is in a good sense.
μηχανᾶσθαι: to procure for oneself
προσόδους: an income
Tinkering with this, I think I realise what you are saying now about "motivated".

καὶ πάνυ σφοδρῶς is adverbial also very greatly. It doesn't mean motivated.

ἔχειν plus an infinitive can mean have the power to do something. ἐργάζεσθαι ἔχουσι καὶ μηχανᾶσθαι προσόδους: would mean have the power to work and to make a wage. I understand the intervening πρὸς to mean that they were not fulfilled actions - left in potentiality. That if they actually did do them, they would do them capably and adequately. I think the πρὸς puts that one step back from them actually ding it.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » December 3rd, 2014, 11:37 pm

Chapter 1, section 22 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: [22] δοῦλοι γάρ εἰσι καὶ οὗτοι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, καὶ πάνυ1 γε χαλεπῶν2 δεσποτῶν3, οἱ μὲν λιχνειῶν4*, οἱ δὲ λαγνειῶν5, οἱ δὲ οἰνοφλυγιῶν6, οἱ δὲ φιλοτιμιῶν7 τινων μώρων8 καὶ δαπανηρῶν9, ἃ οὕτω χαλεπῶς ἄρχει τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὧν ἂν ἐπικρατήσωσιν10, ὥσθ᾽ ἕως11 μὲν ἂν ὁρῶσιν ἡβῶντας12 αὐτοὺς καὶ δυναμένους ἐργάζεσθαι, ἀναγκάζουσι13 φέρειν ἃ ἂν αὐτοὶ ἐργάσωνται καὶ τελεῖν εἰς τὰς αὑτῶν ἐπιθυμίας, ἐπειδὰν14 δὲ αὐτοὺς ἀδυνάτους αἴσθωνται15 ὄντας ἐργάζεσθαι διὰ τὸ γῆρας16, ἀπολείπουσι17 τούτους κακῶς18 γηράσκειν19, ἄλλοις δ᾽ αὖ πειρῶνται20 δούλοις χρῆσθαι21.




Hints: Look at these if you need to
1 πάνυ: very
2 χαλεπῶν: χαλεπός-difficult, harsh, cruel
3 δεσποτῶν: δεσπότης-master, lord
4 λιχνειῶν: λιχνεία-gluttony
4* I am taking this loosely as a genitive of rule. What verb needs to be supplied for this?
5 λαγνειῶν: λαγνεία-lasciviousness, lust
6 οἰνοφλυγιῶν: οἰνοφλυγία-drunkenness
7 φιλοτιμιῶν: φιλοτιμία-ambition, love of honor or distinction
8 μώρων: μωρός-dull, stupid
9 δαπανηρῶν: δαπανηρός-lavish, extravagant, expensive
10 ἐπικρατήσωσιν: ἐπικρατεῖν-to rule over
11 ἕως...ἂν: while or until (The aspect of the participles that follow make it clear which of these choices is intended. At least, it seems that way to me.)
12 ἡβῶντας: ἥβην?-to attain, to be in the prime of youth
13 ἀναγκάζουσι: ἀναγκάζειν-to force, compel
14 ἐπειδὰν: whenever
15 αἴσθωνται: αἰσθάνεσθαι-to perceive, understand
16 γῆρας: old age
17 ἀπολείπουσι: ἀπολιμπάνειν-to leave
18 κακῶς: bad, evil, wretched (I don’t think it will be needed, but if the person is familiar only with the New Testament, it could help)
19 γηράσκειν: to grow old
20 πειρῶνται: πείρειν (from πειράω not πείρω) to try, attempt, endeavor
21 χρῆσθαι: to make
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » December 3rd, 2014, 11:45 pm

Xenophon Chapter 1 Section 22 wrote: [22] δοῦλοι γάρ εἰσι καὶ οὗτοι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, καὶ πάνυ γε χαλεπῶν δεσποτῶν, οἱ μὲν λιχνειῶν, οἱ δὲ λαγνειῶν, οἱ δὲ οἰνοφλυγιῶν, οἱ δὲ φιλοτιμιῶν τινων μώρων καὶ δαπανηρῶν, ἃ οὕτω χαλεπῶς ἄρχει τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὧν ἂν ἐπικρατήσωσιν, ὥσθ᾽ ἕως μὲν ἂν ὁρῶσιν ἡβῶντας αὐτοὺς καὶ δυναμένους ἐργάζεσθαι, ἀναγκάζουσι φέρειν ἃ ἂν αὐτοὶ ἐργάσωνται καὶ τελεῖν εἰς τὰς αὑτῶν ἐπιθυμίας, ἐπειδὰν δὲ αὐτοὺς ἀδυνάτους αἴσθωνται ὄντας ἐργάζεσθαι διὰ τὸ γῆρας, ἀπολείπουσι τούτους κακῶς γηράσκειν, ἄλλοις δ᾽ αὖ πειρῶνται δούλοις χρῆσθαι.
Wes Wood wrote:Socrates said, “For these are also slaves and their masters are very harsh, they* are ruled by gluttony or lust or by drunkenness, or by certain foolish and expensive ambitions, these vices* harshly govern the people they have conquered and so while their victims are in their prime and are able to work they also compel them to bring everything that they make to fulfill their desires, but whenever they perceive their victims are unable to work because of old age, they leave them to grow old wretchedly, and try to make others slaves.”
I am going to look at the info you posted again to improve the formatting. I have run out of time to do so tonight. That is what I was debating. I chose to go ahead with what I had for the sake of getting something done. I must admit, I am uneasy with this rendering. I have the least confidence in the places marked with *.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 4th, 2014, 12:40 am

Xenophon Chapter 1 Section 22 wrote:οἱ δὲ φιλοτιμιῶν⁷ τινων μώρων⁸ καὶ δαπανηρῶν⁹,
Wes Wood wrote:7 φιλοτιμιῶν: φιλοτιμία-ambition, love of honor or distinction
8 μώρων: μωρός-dull, stupid
9 δαπανηρῶν: δαπανηρός-lavish, extravagant, expensive
Wes Wood wrote:or by certain foolish and expensive ambitions
How about taking this as a wasteful display to earn public respect, rather than the moral quality that produces it, "yet others by foolish and lavish keepings-up-with-the-Joneses".
"or by" could be (mis)understood as the same people at different times, I think that it is referring to different people having different vices.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 4th, 2014, 10:08 am

In another thread where CWC and I were pluffing up our plumage and strutting heads in the air for a moment to the tune of Homer's Dactylic hexameter, I added a half-thought:
Stephen Hughes in the thread Hello wrote:οἱ πλείονες (or more formally πλείους ("the majority"), but not as total as a simple πάντες οἱ κοινωνοί ("All the participants"), or a construction with prepositions with the accusative. If both for and against viewpoints were well represented, I guess that a simple οἱ μὲν ... ("some"), οἱ δὲ ... ("others") would do.
What I didn't say, but seems relevant enough now (to help you contextualise your thinking about this syntactical structure which you've rendered as "or by") is that those are ways of referring to parts of a whole. The οἱ μὲν ... ("some"), οἱ δὲ ... ("others") are referring to various members of a group. To refer to people by "some" when they are not members of a group, you could use the ἔνιοι that we met recently (and which occurs right frequently enough in Josephus), which refers to ("some") a certain number without regard to the how many they are of a whole (some without a boundary). [In the New Testament that seems to be left unmarked.]

Perhaps it is worth mentioning too, that when Οἱ δὲ ... καὶ ἄλλοι / ἄλλοι δὲ ... is used, it seems to refer to different groups.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » December 4th, 2014, 10:55 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:"or by" could be (mis)understood as the same people at different times, I think that it is referring to different people having different vices.
I hadn't noticed this before, but I see what you mean. I thought the English rendering from Perseus had a level of ambiguity about it as well. When I looked at it this morning (because I don't yet feel certain about the different people/groups/vices being referenced ) it didn't leave me with any greater confidence.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » December 4th, 2014, 10:59 am

While on the matter, my version for the last section does not look like their version. I missed something very important in it. And things were going so smoothly for a change...
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Post Reply

Return to “Other Greek Texts”