ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 23rd, 2014, 11:33 pm

Allow me the opportunity to persuade you on one point in section 10.

On the whole very good, but allow me the opportunity to persuade you on one point.
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1, section 10 wrote:ταὐτὰ ἄρα ὄντα τῷ μὲν ἐπισταμένῳ χρῆσθαι αὐτῶν ἑκάστοις χρήματά ἐστι, τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ οὐ χρήματα:
Wes Wood (literal) wrote:Then these possessions to the one who indeed knows how to use them, to each [of these people] it is property, but to the one who does not know [how to use them], [it is] not property.
I took it in a similar way the first time myself.

It is obvious that there is fixity and variance here, and it is obvious that the desired result is to make a broad reaching statement.

What you are doing and I was doing was taking the variance as the persons. While that is logically possible, and perhaps a way of rendering it in English it is not the way that the Greek takes it. Lets look at two of the previous passages...
Part of section 8 wrote:κἂν ἄρα γέ τις ἵππον πριάμενος μὴ ἐπίστηται αὐτῷ χρῆσθαι, ἀλλὰ καταπίπτων ἀπ᾽ αὐτοῦ κακὰ λαμβάνῃ, οὐ χρήματα αὐτῷ ἐστιν ὁ ἵππος;
Part of section 9 wrote:εἴ τις διὰ τὸ μὴ ἐπίστασθαι προβάτοις χρῆσθαι ζημιοῖτο, οὐδὲ τὰ πρόβατα χρήματα τούτῳ εἴη ἄν;
The basic structure is ἐπίστασθαι (+dative of the possession) χρῆσθαι. "to know how to use (such and so) a possession"

The other structure is (such and such a thing) τῷ (+dative such and so a person) χρήματά ἐστι "(such and such a thing) is wealth to (such and so a person)".

Let's take out the uncertain elements from this part of section 10. The two structures are combined, so first we need to identify what the elements of the basic structure are, thus...
Basic structure marked wrote:ταὐτὰ ἄρα ὄντα (introduce another possession) τῷ μὲν ἐπισταμένῳ (+dative) χρῆσθαι αὐτῶν ἑκάστοις χρήματά ἐστι, τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ οὐ χρήματα
Now let's use that basic structure to build up a few other examples; pigs (χοῖροι), and irrigation systems (ὑδρεύματα)
Pigs wrote:οἱ ἄρα χοῖροι τῷ μὲν ἐπισταμένῳ χοίροις χρῆσθαι χρήματά ἐστι, τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ οὐ χρήματα
In full that would be...
οἱ ἄρα χοῖροι τῷ ἐπισταμένῳ χοίροις χρῆσθαι χρήματά ἐστι, ἀλλὰ οἱ χοῖροι τῷ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ χοίροις χρῆσθαι χρήματα οὐκ ἐστι
irrigation systems wrote:τὰ ἄρα ὑδρεύματα τῷ μὲν ἐπισταμένῳ ὑδρεύμασιν χρῆσθαι χρήματά ἐστι, τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ οὐ χρήματα
There are many κτήματα (such as χοῖροι and ὑδρεύματα) and to someone who knows how to χρῆσθαι ἑκάστοις of them (αὐτῶν) for him they χρήματά ἐστι. I haven't found a parallel passage to match this structure yet, but I think that ταὐτὰ ... ὄντα ... αὐτῶν ἑκάστοις are neuter plural agreeing with κτήματα.

May I suggest that re-evaluate the way you have taken αὐτῶν ἑκάστοις as masculine?
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 24th, 2014, 10:06 am

Thanks to Stephen Carlson's help, the second post of this thread is now a rudimentary index to the sections.

That will will save us trying to search for the sections of the text in Greek.
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » October 24th, 2014, 5:04 pm

Chapter 1, section 11 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1 wrote: τοῦτ᾽ἄρα φαίνεται ἡμῖν, ἀποδιδομένοις μὲν οἱ αὐλοὶ χρήματα, μὴ ἀποδιδομένοις δὲ ἀλλὰ κεκτημένοις οὔ, τοῖς μὴ ἐπισταμένοις αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι. καὶ ὁμολογουμένως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν χωρεῖ, ἐπείπερ εἴρηται τὰ ὠφελοῦντα χρήματα εἶναι. μὴ πωλούμενοι μὲν γὰρ οὐ χρήματά εἰσιν οἱ αὐλοί: οὐδὲν γὰρ χρήσιμοί εἰσι: πωλούμενοι δὲ χρήματα.

Hints (Look at these if you need to)
μέν...δέ: Notice the parallel structure here.
κεκτημένοις: to have acquired
οὔ: Pay attention to the accent.
καὶ...ὦ Σώκρατες: this structure likely signals a change in speaker.
λόγος: Think about the different ways to exchange words or ideas
χωρεῖ: to make progress
ἐπείπερ: since
εἴρηται: to be agreed
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » October 24th, 2014, 5:04 pm

Chapter 1, section 11 - Text and Translation
Greek:
τοῦτ᾽ἄρα φαίνεται ἡμῖν, ἀποδιδομένοις μὲν οἱ αὐλοὶ χρήματα, μὴ ἀποδιδομένοις δὲ ἀλλὰ κεκτημένοις οὔ, τοῖς μὴ ἐπισταμένοις αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι. καὶ ὁμολογουμένως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν χωρεῖ, ἐπείπερ εἴρηται τὰ ὠφελοῦντα χρήματα εἶναι. μὴ πωλούμενοι μὲν γὰρ οὐ χρήματά εἰσιν οἱ αὐλοί: οὐδὲν γὰρ χρήσιμοί εἰσι: πωλούμενοι δὲ χρήματα.

Translation:
“Then this is how it seems to us: to the ones who are selling the flutes indeed they are property, but not to the ones who are not selling them but have acquired them nevertheless, who do not know how to use them.”

“And, indeed, we agree,” O Socrates, “the discussion is making progress to us, since it is agreed the things which are helpful are property. For, indeed, if the flutes are not sold, they are not property: For they are in no way useful: but when they are sold they are property.”
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » October 24th, 2014, 5:14 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Allow me the opportunity to persuade you on one point in section 10.
Thank you for this walk-through. I would quote it all, but that seemed excessive. I had a great bit of trouble with this part and will admit I was less than satisfied about what I had posted. After I eat I will go back through it and give it greater consideration.
I have been cooking a brisket for about six hours, and I am four minutes away from culinary heaven. 8-)
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 25th, 2014, 9:07 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 11 - Text and Hints
Xenophon, Oeconomicus Chapter 1[color=#00BF00], Section 11[/color] wrote: τοῦτ᾽ἄρα φαίνεται ἡμῖν, ἀποδιδομένοις μὲν οἱ αὐλοὶ χρήματα, μὴ ἀποδιδομένοις δὲ ἀλλὰ κεκτημένοις οὔ, τοῖς μὴ ἐπισταμένοις αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι. καὶ ὁμολογουμένως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν χωρεῖ, ἐπείπερ εἴρηται τὰ ὠφελοῦντα χρήματα εἶναι. μὴ πωλούμενοι μὲν γὰρ οὐ χρήματά εἰσιν οἱ αὐλοί: οὐδὲν γὰρ χρήσιμοί εἰσι: πωλούμενοι δὲ χρήματα.
I will intersperse my comments in chiding (reds) or suggesting (Greens) ways through out your work.
Hints (Look at these if you need to)
μέν...δέ: Notice the parallel structure here. You have not noted how the ἀλλὰ complicates the structure. You need to handle it in such a way that it continues to be discussed in terms of participles. Most helpful would be if you could spell it out.
κεκτημένοις: to have acquired. this English is too vague. This perfective aspect could well be addressed here with some effect. Wearing clothing or a belt, the bride in Revelations and everyday standing up are parallel ideas.
οὔ: Pay attention to the accent.What attention? Explain what (understood) verb it is with I wrote this out in detail in another post last night to help you here.
καὶ...ὦ Σώκρατες: this structure likely signals a change in speaker. Say who, "XXX replies"
λόγος: Think about the different ways to exchange words or ideas Vague - Internet, TV, Radio, Print, face to face???
χωρεῖ: to make progress Match the meaning to the form or the form to the meaning χωρεῖν
ἐπείπερ: since
εἴρηται: to be agreed Is that the meaning here, or generally

It might help you to note possible reader / user responses to you suggestions / hints. Then you could check them for vagueness.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 25th, 2014, 9:13 am

Wes Wood wrote:Chapter 1, section 11 - Text and Translation
Greek:
τοῦτ᾽ἄρα φαίνεται ἡμῖν, ἀποδιδομένοις μὲν οἱ αὐλοὶ χρήματα, μὴ ἀποδιδομένοις δὲ ἀλλὰ κεκτημένοις οὔ, τοῖς μὴ ἐπισταμένοις αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι. καὶ ὁμολογουμένως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν χωρεῖ, ἐπείπερ εἴρηται τὰ ὠφελοῦντα χρήματα εἶναι. μὴ πωλούμενοι μὲν γὰρ οὐ χρήματά εἰσιν οἱ αὐλοί: οὐδὲν γὰρ χρήσιμοί εἰσι: πωλούμενοι δὲ χρήματα.

Translation:
“Then this is how it seems to us: to the ones who are selling the flutes indeed they are property, but not to the ones who are not selling them but have acquired them nevertheless, who do not know how to use them.”

“And, indeed, we agree,” O Socrates, “the discussion is making progress to us, since it is agreed the things which are helpful are property. For, indeed, if the flutes [which] are not sold, they are not property: For they are in no way useful: but when they are sold they are property.”
Perfective aspect is significant in this verb.
μὴ πωλούμενοι adjectival usage, which...
οὐδὲν - adverb or adjective - in Greek and in the rendering.
Good handling of the second μὲν ... δὲ ...
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » October 26th, 2014, 12:10 am

Chapter 1, section 11 - Text and Translation Revisions

I am going to tackle my translational errors now and finish correcting the hints tomorrow. I have spent a good bit of time already on the latter area and have reached the point where the time spent on that task is decreasingly productive. It is requiring me to think in a different manner, but I suspect that is according to plan. ;)

Greek Phrase:
μὴ ἀποδιδομένοις δὲ ἀλλὰ κεκτημένοις οὔ
Amendation: but to the ones who are not selling but keeping the flutes, they are not wealth.

Greek Phrase:
οὐδὲν γὰρ χρήσιμοί εἰσι
English:
For the flutes are not at all useful.

Adverbs and adjectives mess me up, so you may get a good laugh here. I don't know why, but I have to truly stop myself from calling certain adjectives adverbs. A copula is always involved in these instances, but I am cutting myself off here. I really don't want to think about why this is the case right now now, nor do I believe you care :roll:
I believe οὐδὲν is an adverb modifying χρήσιμοί, and χρήσιμοί is an adjective describing flutes. The frequent lack of agreement with οὐδὲν is responsible for a great deal of my discomfort with the word. This is true here and in other places.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Stephen Hughes » October 26th, 2014, 12:39 am

Sorry, I wasn't clear in one point.

κεκτημένοις is the verb which is said was significant in respect if its perfect aspect. Think about when the aquisition took place... The acquisition took place before the possible selling.

If it helps further then think about it in terms of clothing or standing. I can't type Greek because I'm on the phone, but oi gar mh kaqezomenoi alla esthkomenoi has more of the sense of continue to stand because the action of standing up took place before the time that others sold (hypothetically).
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
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Wes Wood
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Re: ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (ἀναγιγνώσκωμεν)

Post by Wes Wood » October 26th, 2014, 1:20 am

Ah. Mayhaps I understand you now. I haven't considered how the initial action of a perfect might relate to other...*gulp*...tenses :?: in a sentence. Am I on the right track?

I believe I remember reading something a greek grammarian wrote about students of greek who begin to read the aspect of the greek perfect into the English perfect. This exchange has stirred that memory.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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