Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 13th, 2015, 4:06 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Phrase adding fail ! ! ! ! !
I didn't notice there was a mistake until you changed the font. I was noticing the "to learn" part. I found it punny.
The ABBA structure of the oral liquids (how can the the layman not (mis)understand that as saliva and phelgm [φλέγμα "inflamation", "one of the humours brought about by heat", "an effect of TCM concept of 上火" cf. NT-used φλόξ, -ογός, ἡ "flame"]) of the phrase "to really learn" would perhaps sound-out stronger in your New World ears than in my Antipodean ones.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 13th, 2015, 7:11 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:ὄργανα χρήματα - What do you mean by "the things needed to make money"? I took this to mean "instruments as possessions", "instruments as things I could use", how did you arrive at your understanding?
I got hung up on the sense of "instrument" as a tool instead of the now obvious musical instrument. I didn't look at the last section as I should have and apparently the idea of "stewardship" was the motivating factor for the idea of "making money". I assume I assumed the verbal part, though I don't know why I wouldn't have put in brackets as is my usual practice, and the idea of "needed" was supplied by the meaning of the word "ὄργανα" which I took as "tool" rather than the more obvious instrument. Unfortunately, I write all this to say it was a careless mistake.

More coming after my daughter's basketball practice. 8-)
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 13th, 2015, 10:07 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:διοικεῖν - my "to use" is beyond the meaning allowable, but your "to manage" doesn't go far enough. It seems to mean something like let me have control of them, give me the right to use them.
I agree with this. I now understand this more along the lines of "and another person has never allowed me to do as I please with his [instruments]."
Stephen Hughes wrote:τὰ ἑαυτοῦ his things - I think contextually this refers to a specific thing; the instruments, but it could refer to any tools.
So since senseless stumbles--slowly; spanned still slightly--straightened, I think I am on board with you now. ;)
Stephen Hughes wrote:λυμαίνονται - destroy them - I think this means "do anything but bring music out of them"
The thought that crossed my mind here was of an unskilled guitar player leaving pick marks along the body of a 59 Les Paul Standard. Admittedly, this isn't what they were thinking.
Stephen Hughes wrote:καταλυμηναίμην - utterly destroy - perhaps put it into a bad way. I don't think that this is a deliberate act of destruction.
Hyperbole. Probably driven by the preceding thought. :oops:
Stephen Hughes wrote:It is possible here that there is an initial play on the fact that the range of meaning of these words ὄργανα, διοικεῖν is in fact quite broad, and that the meaning that he is talking about musical instruments becomes clear later on.
I think you have hit on something here. I would have completely missed it. But then again I did miss "instrument". I guess I'm not surprised.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 14th, 2015, 12:37 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:λυμαίνονται - destroy them - I think this means "do anything but bring music out of them"
The thought that crossed my mind here was of an unskilled guitar player leaving pick marks along the body of a 59 Les Paul Standard. Admittedly, this isn't what they were thinking.
I guess there would have been craftsmen who were skillful enough to make instruments worth preserving over generations and those that could be re-gifted when an opportunity arose. I guess that because Attica was small and there was no long river to transport logs down and hence no "washing out" of the sound-dulling resin and deposition of the water-bourne then crystalised minerals in its place, there would not have been the clear and sharp excellent sounds that we hear in instruments from before the age of steam, but there must have been some standards of quality non-the-less, the human ear being what it is and all.

Didn't guitars have pickguards in the 1950's? Not cleaning, cleaning with the wrong products, washing instead of wiping with a damp cloth, leaving it in the sun, not loosening the strings on a night when the diurnal temperature variation is great, expose to damp / mildew / rodents, could all lead to a physical loss of value. This is the first time I recall seeing λυμαίνεσυαι, so there is little I can say definitely.

Now, if the discussion had been about learning to drive a car . . . λυμαίνονται may have had a differently imagined meaning, but still I don't think it would be intentional.

ὄργανα - are we on the same wavelength here? This plural noun could be a single instrument that consisted of a number of parts.
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 14th, 2015, 1:49 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:ὄργανα - are we on the same wavelength here? This plural noun could be a single instrument that consisted of a number of parts.
I believe that we are. I am thinking of an organ. Which I had no idea was that old. That and the fact that it should have been obvious are why I feel particularly dumb for it.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Didn't guitars have pickguards in the 1950's?
Yes. But pickguards don't offer protection from the feathering effects of a pick from the wayward upstroke who does not know how to play a guitar. The damage there is usually accidental, too. I have seen some very bad cases on nice guitars, but thankfully not on the instrument I mentioned. (I have a "few" on my first Gibson as well :cry: )
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 15th, 2015, 12:41 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 15 wrote:οἶμαι δ᾽ ἂν καὶ εἰ ἐπὶ πῦρ ἐλθόντος σου καὶ μὴ ὄντος παρ᾽ ἐμοί, εἰ ἄλλοσε ἡγησάμην ὁπόθεν σοι εἴη λαβεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ἐμέμφου μοι, καὶ εἰ ὕδωρ παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ αἰτοῦντί σοι αὐτὸς μὴ ἔχων ἄλλοσε καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦτο ἤγαγον, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι οὐδ᾽ ἂν τοῦτό μοι ἐμέμφου, καὶ εἰ βουλομένου μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ δείξαιμί σοι πολὺ δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ περὶ μουσικὴν καί σοι χάριν <ἂν> εἰδότας, εἰ ἐθέλοις παρ᾽ αὐτῶν μανθάνειν, τί ἂν ἔτι μοι ταῦτα ποιοῦντι μέμφοιο;
"But I suppose if you came to get fire from me and I did not have any at my house, if I led you from to a place where you might get fire, you would not blame me. And if you requested water from me and I myself did not have any and I led you to it, I know that you would not blame this on me either. And if when you were wanting to learn to play music from me I showed you someone much more skillful than I am about in music and they would acknowledge their debt to you (thank you / graciously accept you as a student) if you wanted to learn from them, why would you still blame me for doing these things?"
δείξαιμί σοι - showed you - this is vaguer than the Greek, because it could mean he was standing any-old-where when he was showing. Consider that the Greek word for index finger, forefinger is ὁ δείκτης (not listed itself in LSJ if you were thinking to check, but ὁ ἀντίχειρ, "thumb" and ὁ δάκτυλος "finger" or "toe", and ὁ μείζων δάκτυλος "big toe" are). δείκνυμι, does mean "show", to a certain extent, but in the sense that the two of them would stand at some distance and he would extent his finger in the direction of the one who could teach music, so something like "point you on to" might be better.

A musician might be knowledgeable about music (as a musicologist would be too), but here they want someone skilled in music.

ἔτι - still - I wonder from the Wood-ennes of this translation whether you are word for word rendering this or understanding then rendering? The question is whether "blame" is an ongoing action or something that arises in each instance. Perhaps, "in this case too". How do you say the third (or fourth, if the second one is "second") in the sequence, "His mum gave him an apple for his Maths teacher, and another for his English teacher, and ____ another for his Science teacher." That blank in your idiolect will probably give you a hint as to how you will render the ἔτι here.

It would have been better if I could have spotted this difficulty and changed the hints for this section a little before posting, but it takes time and a third-person perspective to recognise one's errors - both of which occur after the submit button has been pressed, perhaps on the following day:

One of the hints reads:
μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ - μαθεῖν τι παρὰ τινός
That would be better with the σου omitted, and the syntax it comes in, explained in a separate hint following it, like this:

Amended / Extra hints:
μουσικὴν μαθεῖν ... παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ - μαθεῖν τι παρὰ τινός
βουλομένου μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου - μουσικὴν μαθεῖν is the fulcrum across which βουλομένου and σου balance. That is to say βουλομένου and σου refer to the same person and their position either side of μουσικὴν μαθεῖν shows us that that is the extent of the "wanting".
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 15th, 2015, 4:13 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Didn't guitars have pickguards in the 1950's?
Yes. But pickguards don't offer protection from the feathering effects of a pick from the wayward upstroke who does not know how to play a guitar. The damage there is usually accidental, too. I have seen some very bad cases on nice guitars, but thankfully not on the instrument I mentioned. (I have a "few" on my first Gibson as well :cry: )
Do you speak to yourself in Greek when you play (with) your guitar?

If you are tuning your κιθάρα, a string is a χορδὴ κιθάρας, tuning up (tightening the strings) is ἐπιτείνειν τὰς χορδάς, loosening the strings is ἀνιέναι τὰς χορδάς, and remember that the accent moves to the second last syllable for the feminine of δεύτερος.

To play is κιθαρίζειν. A note (sound) is a φθόγγος.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 15th, 2015, 4:30 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:the Greek word for index finger, forefinger is ὁ δείκτης (not listed itself in LSJ if you were thinking to check, but ὁ ἀντίχειρ, "thumb" and ὁ δάκτυλος "finger" or "toe", and ὁ μείζων δάκτυλος "big toe" are).
Sorry, I should have explained that set more fully, it is not completely analogous with English.

Let me give it its own thread though.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 17th, 2015, 12:23 am

I have no idea why this phrase is causing me so much *cough* distress, so I am going to go back through the initial phrase to see if I have missed something else. I wonder if I initially linked μοι with ἀποφεύγειν. Am I right in thinking that it should go with συνωφελῆσαι? Since I am trying to understand what I am screwing up rather than give you what I think it must be saying, I would appreciate it if you bring it to my attention anything that might even possibly be wrong here.

πρὸς ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: προθύμως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποφεύγειν μοι πειρᾷ μηδέν με συνωφελῆσαι εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα.

Kritoboulus responding to these things said, “Socrates, you eagerly flee [and] do not make any effort to help me more easily bear the matters that are distressing me.”
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 17th, 2015, 6:30 am

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 14 wrote:πρὸς ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: προθύμως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποφεύγειν μοι πειρᾷ μηδέν με συνωφελῆσαι εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα.
Hints:
προθύμως - eagerly
εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα - cf. Acts 3:19 εἰς τὸ ἐξαλειφθῆναι ὑμῶν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, (i.e. εἰς τὸ + a verb with an implied subject and a stated object is a mark of higher style.)
πειράομαι - escape
συνωφελῆσαι - join in aiding
ἐξηγήσομαί - relate in full
WesvWood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote: But to these things Kritoboulus said: “Indeed, you eagerly run from me making no effort to join in relieving me from my distressing affairs that it would be easy to rescue me from."
to join in relieving me from my distressing affairs that it would be easy to rescue me from. - you could tweak this by understanding that με and ὑποφέρειν go together. The adverbial phrase εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον could be removed then reinserted for an additional meaning, rather than rearranged in your mind as με συνωφελῆσαι ῥᾷον εἰς τὸ ὑποφέρειν.

Look at it again.
Kritoboulus responding to these things said, “Socrates, you eagerly flee [and] do not make any effort to help me more easily bear the matters that are distressing me.”
εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα
Let's begin at the end and, then work back.
  1. The final phrase alone.
    1. The basic structure of τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα is ἀναγκαῖον ἔστιν μοι πράσσειν / δρᾶν / ποιεῖν (Attic / Doric / Koine).
    2. Νominalise it using a participle cοnstruction τὰ πράγματα ὄντα ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράσσειν. (English word-order, I know. Hopefully after a few years I can go straight to Greek.)
    3. Parenthesise the participal part with the noun and its article (fulcrum and balance) τὰ ὄντα ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράσσειν πράγματα.
    4. Lose the parts which couldn't be understood in any other way if not stated. τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα. (What is in the text).
  2. The final phrase worked into what precedes it.
    1. The basic structures of εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τι that should be recognisable are 2; εἰς τὸ πράσσειν τι and ῥᾷον φέρειν,
    2. if you wanted to know what ῥᾷον is by itself, it is is the comparative form of ῥᾳδίως, but in fact it should be recognised as the phrase ῥᾷον φέρειν "more easily cope with".
    3. ὑπο-φέρειν probably strengthens the "set" phrase for effect.
    4. When we add these two elements together, the understood verb of the last section is borrowed from the preceding section. So, the last section of what you are having difficulty understanding becomes...
    5. εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ {ὄντα} ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα {φέρειν} πράγματα.
I'll continue to work back further to the front of this, when I get another chance.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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