Stephen Hughes wrote:ἀνασχέσθαι - ἀνέχειν (+acc.) to bear with, put up with or suffer someone. In this case since there are two accusatives θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους and σε, it will be necessary to make a judgement as to which is subject and which is object.
[quote=""Wes Wood"]or I do not think you would be able to bear either gods or men[/quote]
Please explain your choice.
Wes Wood wrote:I'm not so sure about this. I feel like I reasoned it together rather than understood it. I am going to read through the entire chapter from the start and see if that helps me any. I don't feel like it fits with yesterday's reading, though it might just be end of the day exhaustion on my part. Thanks for sticking with me.
Re-reading is good, but in this case, I suggest you look at the following two or three sections to understand this one better.
πρὸς ... τούτοις - in addition to these things, besides ..., add to that οἰόμενον - here is you thinking ὁρῶ σε οἰόμενον πλουτεῖν - ὁρῶ is regularly used with a noun and a participle οἰόμενον "I'm looking at you thinking / supposing" ἀμελῶς ἔχοντα - ἀμελῶς ἔχειν - to be indifferent ἔχοντα πρὸς τὸ μηχανᾶσθαι χρήματα - another accusative participle with ὁρῶ - to have a disposition towards making money προσέχοντα τὸν νοῦν - another accusative participle with ὁρῶ - paying attention, devote oneself to πράγμασι - to (the) affairs παιδικοῖς - boyish, puerile ὥσπερ ἐξόν σοι - in so far as it is possible for you to do so ὧν ἕνεκα - [ταῦτα] ὧν ἕνεκα - those are the things on account of which ἀνήκεστον - desperate, fatal μή ... πάθῃς - that you might not suffer ... ἀπορία - hardship, destitution καταστῇς - you might (not) end up in ...
... ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι:
I am taking "ἀνασχέσθαι" as the infinitive "completing" (for lack of knowledge of a better way to put it on my part) "οἶμαί". I read you as the subject of the middle aorist infinitive "ἀνασχέσθαι" and the objects of that infinitive are "θεοὺς" and "ἀνθρώπους" which are joined by οὔτε...οὔτε (neither...nor). I did not realize that my rendering switched the negation to the head verb from here. I can only guess that this is a result of thinking about the phrase in English and thinking, "That seems right."
Hints: προσδεηθείην - What a form!! - aor. pass. opt. προσδέεσθαι to be in need of ἐπαρκέσειαν - ἐπαρκεῖν - to be strong enough πορίσαντες - πορίζειν - furnish, provide κατακλύσειαν - aor. opt. act. κατακλύζειν - to deluge, over-flow ἀφθονίᾳ - in plenty, in abundance δίαιτα - way of living, mode of life ἀρκοῦντα - the things that could support μᾶλλον ... ἢ - more than, the sense is in a better way / more adequately than τῇ ἑαυτῶν κατασκευῇ - their own situation τῇ σῇ - τῇ σῇ (κατασκευῇ) - yours παρὰ σοῦ - from you ὠφελησόμενοι - when they want to receive help ἀποβλέπουσι - gaze steadfastly, understand a πρὸς σε with this.
Wes Wood wrote:... ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι:
I am taking "ἀνασχέσθαι" as the infinitive "completing" (for lack of knowledge of a better way to put it on my part) "οἶμαί". I read you as the subject of the middle aorist infinitive "ἀνασχέσθαι" and the objects of that infinitive are "θεοὺς" and "ἀνθρώπους" which are joined by οὔτε...οὔτε (neither...nor). I did not realize that my rendering switched the negation to the head verb from here. I can only guess that this is a result of thinking about the phrase in English and thinking, "That seems right."
I mean it it that he can't bear with either gods or men without offering lavish sacrifices, or that they can't bear with him?
Well, that's strike one . Let me try again. "He can't bear men and gods without offering sacrifices." I don't have a clue what precisely is meant by bearing here. I am currently assuming he couldn't endure some sort of mistreatment at their "hands", but I don't think this makes much sense.
"Moreover I also understand these things that the city already commanded you to pay great taxes for keeping horses and paying the cost of choruses and funding exercise halls and maintaining the presidency [complete guess as to what this means here; “maintaining” may well be the wrong word]. And if indeed there were a war, I know that also they will command you to fund the navy and pay war taxes and such things as these. You will not easily hold up under as many things as these. And whenever you think to do one of these things in a manner that is deficient, I know that the Athenians will punish you no less than if you took their things by theft."
This was an extremely hurried effort. There are probably a host of errors here.
Wes Wood wrote:Well, that's strike one . Let me try again. "He can't bear men and gods without offering sacrifices." I don't have a clue what precisely is meant by bearing here. I am currently assuming he couldn't endure some sort of mistreatment at their "hands", but I don't think this makes much sense.
Bear is the verbal form of clemency. Sort of a step before forgiveness - being big-hearted enough to put up with the imperfections (sins and short-comings) of others, as in Ephesians 4:2 "ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων ἐν ἀγάπῃ". In a world-view without absolute forgiveness, I guess it would be nearer to the end of the line.
Hints: τούτοις ... οὐκ ἔχω ἀντιλέγειν - I have no reply to those things, (which have just been mentioned). ὥρα σοι - it is time for you προστατεύειν - (+gen.) to be guardian for τῷ ὄντι - in reality, in fact οἰκτρὸς - pitiable οὐ θαυμαστὸν - the normal way of negating an adjective ἐγέλασας ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ - you mocked me, you ridiculed me οὐκ ἐπαύσω πρὶν ἐξήλεγξάς με κεκτῆσθαι - to possess προστατεύειν (+gen) - so the accusative is the subject of the infinitive ἐπιμελεῖσθαι (+gen) - to care for (so, understand σου) πένης - poor. The question of course arises as to whether we are justified in assuming that an adverb (ἀληθῶς) - other than the adverbs of intensity - can modify an adjective as we are used to in English. The first approach should be to assume that it doesn't, and then work from there. If ἀληθῶς is functioning as an adverb, then it has to have to display some relationship with the other adverb (παντάπασιν) when you are working through this sentence.
"Moreover I also understand these things that the city already commanded you to pay great taxes for keeping horses and paying the cost of choruses and funding exercise halls and maintaining the presidency [complete guess as to what this means here; “maintaining” may well be the wrong word]. And if indeed there were a war, I know that also they will command you to fund the navy and pay war taxes and such things as these. You will not easily hold up under as many things as these. And whenever you think to do one of these things in a manner that is deficient, I know that the Athenians will punish you no less than if you took their things by theft."
This was an extremely hurried effort. There are probably a host of errors here.
Great that you had an opportunity to rush. How do you number errors? I would say that there is one errror and there are a couple of inaccuracies, but nothing incorrect - are they errors? Rework the part in red, but for the others, let me ask you a few questions to clarify things...
Was he taxed because he kept horses (by choice) or was he required to keep horses for state purposes?
What are some other beneficial things that happened in exercise halls (γυμνάσια), besides exercising?
What type of (charitable social) organisations do (the wives of) rich men preside over in your country? (Of course there are no exact parallels here - this is only to start you thinking)
What was the extent of his contribution to the navy?
What are the "many things" that he will find it difficult to bear up under?