Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 18th, 2014, 12:35 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Critobulus knows he is richer than Socrates, yet Socrates makes a big claim, following that, Critobulus laughs. Is that the interplay between them that led you to understand "dismissively"?
Yes. I am imagining the reason for the laugh. It's nothing more than my interpretation of the scene.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 18th, 2014, 1:11 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Critobulus knows he is richer than Socrates, yet Socrates makes a big claim, following that, Critobulus laughs. Is that the interplay between them that led you to understand "dismissively"?
Yes. I am imagining the reason for the laugh. It's nothing more than my interpretation of the scene.
All understanding is interpretation. Does "dismissively" mean like, "you've gotta be kidding me"? The laugh means that Critobulus feels Socrates statement is γέλοιος "(practically) a joke". cf. Chapter 1, Section 6.
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 18th, 2014, 1:37 pm

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 4 wrote:κᾆτα οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς σὺ μὲν οὐχ ἡγῇ προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων, ἐμὲ δὲ οἰκτίρεις ἐπὶ τῇ πενίᾳ; τὰ μὲν γὰρ ἐμά, ἔφη, ἱκανά ἐστιν ἐμοὶ παρέχειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀρκοῦντα: εἰς δὲ τὸ σὸν σχῆμα ὃ σὺ περιβέβλησαι καὶ τὴν σὴν δόξαν, οὐδ᾽ εἰ τρὶς ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι προσγένοιτό σοι, οὐδ᾽ ὣς ἂν ἱκανά μοι δοκεῖ εἶναί σοι.
"And so you know that I am more wealthy than you are, but you do not think that you need more money and you have pity for me in my poverty?"

“For the things that are mine,” he replied “are sufficient to provide me with satisfaction, but, to maintain the persona you project and your reputation, not even if three times what you now possess were added to you, would it seem to me to be sufficient for you.”
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 18th, 2014, 1:45 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Does "dismissively" mean like, "you've gotta be kidding me"?
Yes. Something like that.

I interpret this laugh as the functional equivalent of the utterance "bless your heart." I imagine that means more to Dr. Conrad and others from the States than it does to you, though.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 18th, 2014, 11:10 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 4 wrote:κᾆτα οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς
"And so you know that I am more wealthy than you are,
Let me once more mount my hobby horse of these last few days and mention again οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς "??so?? knowing" "knowing well the force of the things were just now the topic of our discussion", "knowing (for a fact) that things are as I have just described".

I think you've got the οὕτως down pat, but may have slipped up - or more precisely trodden too lightly - on the κᾆτα. It seems to be a lot more in-your-face than "And so". Perhaps it is as strong as the surprise and contempt expressed by the capitalised initial letters of the names of the last three days of the five-day working week, or at least moving in that direction.

"Even though you know", could be a way of rendering the participle.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 4 wrote:οὐδ᾽ εἰ τρὶς ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι προσγένοιτό σοι, οὐδ᾽ ὣς ἂν ἱκανά μοι δοκεῖ εἶναί σοι.
not even if three times what you now possess were added to you, would it seem to me to be sufficient for you.”
This translation is like applying a chisel then various grades sandpaper to bas-relief to get a more polished result. :o The Greek is more contoured. Could you have a look at it again to try to render the feel of the hiatus.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 19th, 2014, 1:26 pm

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 5 wrote:πῶς δὴ τοῦτ᾽; ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος. ἀπεφήνατο ὁ Σωκράτης: ὅτι πρῶτον μὲν ὁρῶ σοι ἀνάγκην οὖσαν θύειν πολλά τε καὶ μεγάλα, ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι: ἔπειτα ξένους προσήκει σοι πολλοὺς δέχεσθαι, καὶ τούτους μεγαλοπρεπῶς: ἔπειτα δὲ πολίτας δειπνίζειν καὶ εὖ ποιεῖν, ἢ ἔρημον συμμάχων εἶναι.
Hints:
ἀπεφήνατο - ἀποφαίνειν to show forth, display
πρῶτον ... ἔπειτα ... ἔπειτα - firstly ... secondly ... thirdly, first ... next ... finally
σοι ἀνάγκην οὖσαν - σοι ἀνάγκη οὖσα - σοι ἀνάγκή ἐστιν
- or (else)
ἀνασχέσθαι - ἀνέχειν (+acc.) to bear with, put up with or suffer someone. In this case since there are two accusatives θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους and σε, it will be necessary to make a judgement as to which is subject and which is object.
προσήκει (+dat and acc.) - it is fitting that (someone does something)
δέχεσθαι - welcome, accept, entertain (understand οἶμαί)
μεγαλοπρεπῶς - in magnificent style
δειπνίζειν - to lay out a banquet for (understand οἶμαί)
ἔρημον - (+gen.) (left) deserted by / bereft of
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 19th, 2014, 4:06 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:the capitalised initial letters of the names of the last three days of the five-day working week
I had never noticed this before, and I definitely missed this nuance. One of many missteps.
Stephen Hughes wrote:"Even though you know", could be a way of rendering the participle.
I think I am guilty of believing that my rendering adequately carried more of this nuance than it does. In my mind the phrase "you know...but" modified both both statements linked by "and".
Xenophon wrote: εἰς δὲ τὸ σὸν σχῆμα ὃ σὺ περιβέβλησαι καὶ τὴν σὴν δόξαν, οὐδ᾽ εἰ τρὶς ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι προσγένοιτό σοι, οὐδ᾽ ὣς ἂν ἱκανά μοι δοκεῖ εἶναί σοι.
I am not sure here whether I am misunderstanding the Greek, struggling to put it in English, or both of these. I am going to render it freely so that my errors will be magnified.
"but it would not be enough if three times as much as you now have were added to you to help you keep up appearances-not even this would be sufficient for you, at least that’s what I think."
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 19th, 2014, 11:30 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:the capitalised initial letters of the names of the last three days of the five-day working week
I had never noticed this before, and I definitely missed this nuance. One of many missteps.
Gentrification by translation is a common enough phenomenon.

The LSJ entry reads in part "in ... exclamations to express surprise, indignation, contempt, sarcasm, and the like, "
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:"Even though you know", could be a way of rendering the participle.
I think I am guilty of believing that my rendering adequately carried more of this nuance than it does. In my mind the phrase "you know...but" modified both both statements linked by "and".
Yours is adequate. Mine is just being put forward as an alternative. (At the risks of using big words wrongly and boring people with my thoughts, let me say ... ) A grammatically positive participle of concomitant circumstance with a negative (in this case contradictory to perception) sense needs some form of negation in the translation. Presenting the negation first in an "even though" is possible and adequate in the English idiom, while giving a positive statement first followed by "but" as you have done is closer to the thought processes that happens in our minds as we read the Greek, and realise after hearing (or reading) the ἐγνωκὼς that the οὕτως is actually referring to a contradicted statement. My alternative reads the Greek with less of a distance between the κᾆτα and the οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς, because I carry the scrambled thinking of κᾆτα straight into οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς. Yours by extending the sentence out to find the negative, is like the thought process of there were a sizable pause between κᾆτα and οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς, like
"κᾆτα!!!", he exclaimed, then sat there for a moment bewildered thinking about what Socrates had just said. "οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς" "You know for a fact because you've just told me that you're rich and I'm poor, and at the same time that my wealth is one hundred times more than your."
Anyway, don't worry. Rendering it in English is just a means not an ends.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon wrote: εἰς δὲ τὸ σὸν σχῆμα ὃ σὺ περιβέβλησαι καὶ τὴν σὴν δόξαν, οὐδ᾽ εἰ τρὶς ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι προσγένοιτό σοι, οὐδ᾽ ὣς ἂν ἱκανά μοι δοκεῖ εἶναί σοι.
I am not sure here whether I am misunderstanding the Greek, struggling to put it in English, or both of these. I am going to render it freely so that my errors will be magnified.
"but it would not be enough if three times as much as you now have were added to you to help you keep up appearances-not even this would be sufficient for you, at least that’s what I think."
Well, translations are always biased towards bringing out one particular nuance of the language at the expense of others. There is often so much in the original that we see but can not express without altering the integrity of the target language. Unfortunately, the least understood elements or the one that the "translator" is working towards understanding are one that is concentrated on in rendering. The danger in bringing out the true meaning of the Greek in English is that we produce unidiomatic calques. That usually happens in verbal tenses, when they are seen as individual entities, rather than alternatives within a wider system of expression. There is often a feeling that a Greek verbal tense needs to be explicated, and the result is sometimes very un-English. Anyway...

The hiatus that I was getting at with the chisel and sandpaper image was, "You know, with the amount of ostentation that I see you lavishing on your public image, even if you tripled your wealth somehow in a way hitherto unknown ... , even if it were like that I don't think it would be enough for you. I mean, look, it seems to both gods and men that you are sponsoring the temples, your house is practically a hotel, you wine and dine all and sundry, and on top of that, you are even naive enough to believe those fair-weather friends will be there for you when the coffers are empty."
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 20th, 2014, 10:28 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 6 wrote:ἔτι δὲ καὶ τὴν πόλιν αἰσθάνομαι τὰ μὲν ἤδη σοι προστάττουσαν μεγάλα τελεῖν, ἱπποτροφίας τε καὶ χορηγίας καὶ γυμνασιαρχίας καὶ προστατείας, ἂν δὲ δὴ πόλεμος γένηται, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι καὶ τριηραρχίας [μισθοὺς] καὶ εἰσφορὰς τοσαύτας σοι προστάξουσιν ὅσας σὺ οὐ ῥᾳδίως ὑποίσεις. ὅπου δ᾽ ἂν ἐνδεῶς δόξῃς τι τούτων ποιεῖν, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι σε τιμωρήσονται Ἀθηναῖοι οὐδὲν ἧττον ἢ εἰ τὰ αὑτῶν λάβοιεν κλέπτοντα.
Hints:
αἰσθάνομαι - it impresses me that is better English than I am impressed that (which has its own meaning). (+acc. and inf.)
προστάττουσαν / προστάξουσιν - ττ for σσ
τὴν πόλιν ... προστάττουσαν - participle with dative
τελεῖν - to pay as a tax - a compulsory contribution to the state
ἱπποτροφία - keeping horses. I think that this and what follows are a list of liturgies (λῃτουργία) - public services for the people.
χορηγία - pay the cost of choruses.
γυμνασιαρχία - fund exercise halls.
προστατεία - presidency
τριηραρχία - pay the cost of building, equipping and manning a naval vessel, the trireme.
εἰσφορὰς - a property tax levied in Athens during times of war
ὑποίσεις - ὑποφέρειν to bear up under
ἐνδεῶς - in a manner that is wanting, with a shortfall
τιμωρήσονται - they will punish
οὐδὲν ἧττον ἢ - in no wise less than
λάβοιεν - third person plural active aorist optative
κλέπτοντα - this is second person accusative singular, like with an understood σε, not agreeing with τὰ, as first instinct might lead you to believe.
τὰ - take this as more of a demonstrative than you might usually be inclined to do.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 21st, 2014, 2:44 am

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 5 wrote:πῶς δὴ τοῦτ᾽; ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος. ἀπεφήνατο ὁ Σωκράτης: ὅτι πρῶτον μὲν ὁρῶ σοι ἀνάγκην οὖσαν θύειν πολλά τε καὶ μεγάλα, ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι: ἔπειτα ξένους προσήκει σοι πολλοὺς δέχεσθαι, καὶ τούτους μεγαλοπρεπῶς: ἔπειτα δὲ πολίτας δειπνίζειν καὶ εὖ ποιεῖν, ἢ ἔρημον συμμάχων εἶναι.
"How exactly is this?" Kritoboulus said.

Socrates explained, “Because, first, I see you are forced to offer great and many sacrifices, or I do not think you would be able to bear either gods or men. Next, it is fitting that you welcome many strangers, and these in magnificent style. Finally, you must lay out a banquet and do well for the citizens, or be deserted by [your] allies.

I'm not so sure about this. I feel like I reasoned it together rather than understood it. I am going to read through the entire chapter from the start and see if that helps me any. I don't feel like it fits with yesterday's reading, though it might just be end of the day exhaustion on my part. Thanks for sticking with me. :)
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