Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
Forum rules
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 21st, 2014, 3:36 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 5 wrote:... ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι: ἔπειτα ξένους προσήκει σοι πολλοὺς δέχεσθαι, ...
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἀνασχέσθαι - ἀνέχειν (+acc.) to bear with, put up with or suffer someone. In this case since there are two accusatives θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους and σε, it will be necessary to make a judgement as to which is subject and which is object.
[quote=""Wes Wood"]or I do not think you would be able to bear either gods or men[/quote]
Please explain your choice.
Wes Wood wrote:I'm not so sure about this. I feel like I reasoned it together rather than understood it. I am going to read through the entire chapter from the start and see if that helps me any. I don't feel like it fits with yesterday's reading, though it might just be end of the day exhaustion on my part. Thanks for sticking with me. :)
Re-reading is good, but in this case, I suggest you look at the following two or three sections to understand this one better.
0 x


Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 21st, 2014, 8:22 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 7 wrote:πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ὁρῶ σε οἰόμενον πλουτεῖν, καὶ ἀμελῶς μὲν ἔχοντα πρὸς τὸ μηχανᾶσθαι χρήματα, παιδικοῖς δὲ πράγμασι προσέχοντα τὸν νοῦν, ὥσπερ ἐξόν σοι. ὧν ἕνεκα οἰκτίρω σε μή τι ἀνήκεστον κακὸν πάθῃς καὶ εἰς πολλὴν ἀπορίαν καταστῇς.
πρὸς ... τούτοις - in addition to these things, besides ..., add to that
οἰόμενον - here is you thinking
ὁρῶ σε οἰόμενον πλουτεῖν - ὁρῶ is regularly used with a noun and a participle οἰόμενον "I'm looking at you thinking / supposing"
ἀμελῶς ἔχοντα - ἀμελῶς ἔχειν - to be indifferent
ἔχοντα πρὸς τὸ μηχανᾶσθαι χρήματα - another accusative participle with ὁρῶ - to have a disposition towards making money
προσέχοντα τὸν νοῦν - another accusative participle with ὁρῶ - paying attention, devote oneself to
πράγμασι - to (the) affairs
παιδικοῖς - boyish, puerile
ὥσπερ ἐξόν σοι - in so far as it is possible for you to do so
ὧν ἕνεκα - [ταῦτα] ὧν ἕνεκα - those are the things on account of which
ἀνήκεστον - desperate, fatal
μή ... πάθῃς - that you might not suffer ...
ἀπορία - hardship, destitution
καταστῇς - you might (not) end up in ...
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 21st, 2014, 9:04 am

... ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι:
I am taking "ἀνασχέσθαι" as the infinitive "completing" (for lack of knowledge of a better way to put it on my part) "οἶμαί". I read you as the subject of the middle aorist infinitive "ἀνασχέσθαι" and the objects of that infinitive are "θεοὺς" and "ἀνθρώπους" which are joined by οὔτε...οὔτε (neither...nor). I did not realize that my rendering switched the negation to the head verb from here. I can only guess that this is a result of thinking about the phrase in English and thinking, "That seems right." :oops:
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 21st, 2014, 9:48 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 8 wrote:καὶ ἐμοὶ μέν, εἴ τι καὶ προσδεηθείην, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι καὶ σὺ γιγνώσκεις ὡς εἰσὶν οἳ καὶ ἐπαρκέσειαν ἂν ὥστε πάνυ μικρὰ πορίσαντες κατακλύσειαν ἂν ἀφθονίᾳ τὴν ἐμὴν δίαιταν: οἱ δὲ σοὶ φίλοι πολὺ ἀρκοῦντα σοῦ μᾶλλον ἔχοντες τῇ ἑαυτῶν κατασκευῇ ἢ σὺ τῇ σῇ ὅμως ὡς παρὰ σοῦ ὠφελησόμενοι ἀποβλέπουσι.
Hints:
προσδεηθείην - What a form!! - aor. pass. opt. προσδέεσθαι to be in need of
ἐπαρκέσειαν - ἐπαρκεῖν - to be strong enough
πορίσαντες - πορίζειν - furnish, provide
κατακλύσειαν - aor. opt. act. κατακλύζειν - to deluge, over-flow
ἀφθονίᾳ - in plenty, in abundance
δίαιτα - way of living, mode of life
ἀρκοῦντα - the things that could support
μᾶλλον ... ἢ - more than, the sense is in a better way / more adequately than
τῇ ἑαυτῶν κατασκευῇ - their own situation
τῇ σῇ - τῇ σῇ (κατασκευῇ) - yours
παρὰ σοῦ - from you
ὠφελησόμενοι - when they want to receive help
ἀποβλέπουσι - gaze steadfastly, understand a πρὸς σε with this.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 21st, 2014, 9:50 am

Wes Wood wrote:... ἢ οὔτε θεοὺς οὔτε ἀνθρώπους οἶμαί σε ἂν ἀνασχέσθαι:
I am taking "ἀνασχέσθαι" as the infinitive "completing" (for lack of knowledge of a better way to put it on my part) "οἶμαί". I read you as the subject of the middle aorist infinitive "ἀνασχέσθαι" and the objects of that infinitive are "θεοὺς" and "ἀνθρώπους" which are joined by οὔτε...οὔτε (neither...nor). I did not realize that my rendering switched the negation to the head verb from here. I can only guess that this is a result of thinking about the phrase in English and thinking, "That seems right." :oops:
I mean it it that he can't bear with either gods or men without offering lavish sacrifices, or that they can't bear with him?
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 21st, 2014, 3:56 pm

Well, that's strike one :lol: . Let me try again. "He can't bear men and gods without offering sacrifices." I don't have a clue what precisely is meant by bearing here. I am currently assuming he couldn't endure some sort of mistreatment at their "hands", but I don't think this makes much sense.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 21st, 2014, 6:24 pm

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 6 wrote: ἔτι δὲ καὶ τὴν πόλιν αἰσθάνομαι τὰ μὲν ἤδη σοι προστάττουσαν μεγάλα τελεῖν, ἱπποτροφίας τε καὶ χορηγίας καὶ γυμνασιαρχίας καὶ προστατείας, ἂν δὲ δὴ πόλεμος γένηται, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι καὶ τριηραρχίας [μισθοὺς] καὶ εἰσφορὰς τοσαύτας σοι προστάξουσιν ὅσας σὺ οὐ ῥᾳδίως ὑποίσεις. ὅπου δ᾽ ἂν ἐνδεῶς δόξῃς τι τούτων ποιεῖν, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι σε τιμωρήσονται Ἀθηναῖοι οὐδὲν ἧττον ἢ εἰ τὰ αὑτῶν λάβοιεν κλέπτοντα.
"Moreover I also understand these things that the city already commanded you to pay great taxes for keeping horses and paying the cost of choruses and funding exercise halls and maintaining the presidency [complete guess as to what this means here; “maintaining” may well be the wrong word]. And if indeed there were a war, I know that also they will command you to fund the navy and pay war taxes and such things as these. You will not easily hold up under as many things as these. And whenever you think to do one of these things in a manner that is deficient, I know that the Athenians will punish you no less than if you took their things by theft."

This was an extremely hurried effort. There are probably a host of errors here.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 22nd, 2014, 5:58 am

Wes Wood wrote:Well, that's strike one :lol: . Let me try again. "He can't bear men and gods without offering sacrifices." I don't have a clue what precisely is meant by bearing here. I am currently assuming he couldn't endure some sort of mistreatment at their "hands", but I don't think this makes much sense.
Bear is the verbal form of clemency. Sort of a step before forgiveness - being big-hearted enough to put up with the imperfections (sins and short-comings) of others, as in Ephesians 4:2 "ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων ἐν ἀγάπῃ". In a world-view without absolute forgiveness, I guess it would be nearer to the end of the line.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 22nd, 2014, 6:38 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 9 wrote:καὶ ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπεν: ἐγὼ τούτοις, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκ ἔχω ἀντιλέγειν: ἀλλ᾽ ὥρα σοι προστατεύειν ἐμοῦ, ὅπως μὴ τῷ ὄντι οἰκτρὸς γένωμαι. ἀκούσας οὖν ὁ Σωκράτης εἶπε: καὶ οὐ θαυμαστὸν δοκεῖς, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, τοῦτο σαυτῷ ποιεῖν, ὅτι ὀλίγῳ μὲν πρόσθεν, ὅτε ἐγὼ ἔφην πλουτεῖν, ἐγέλασας ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ ὡς οὐδὲ εἰδότι ὅ τι εἴη πλοῦτος, καὶ πρότερον οὐκ ἐπαύσω πρὶν ἐξήλεγξάς με καὶ ὁμολογεῖν ἐποίησας μηδὲ ἑκατοστὸν μέρος τῶν σῶν κεκτῆσθαι, νῦν δὲ κελεύεις προστατεύειν μέ σου καὶ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι ὅπως ἂν μὴ παντάπασιν ἀληθῶς πένης γένοιο;
Hints:
τούτοις ... οὐκ ἔχω ἀντιλέγειν - I have no reply to those things, (which have just been mentioned).
ὥρα σοι - it is time for you
προστατεύειν - (+gen.) to be guardian for
τῷ ὄντι - in reality, in fact
οἰκτρὸς - pitiable
οὐ θαυμαστὸν - the normal way of negating an adjective
ἐγέλασας ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ - you mocked me, you ridiculed me
οὐκ ἐπαύσω πρὶν ἐξήλεγξάς με
κεκτῆσθαι - to possess
προστατεύειν (+gen) - so the accusative is the subject of the infinitive
ἐπιμελεῖσθαι (+gen) - to care for (so, understand σου)
πένης - poor. The question of course arises as to whether we are justified in assuming that an adverb (ἀληθῶς) - other than the adverbs of intensity - can modify an adjective as we are used to in English. The first approach should be to assume that it doesn't, and then work from there. If ἀληθῶς is functioning as an adverb, then it has to have to display some relationship with the other adverb (παντάπασιν) when you are working through this sentence.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 22nd, 2014, 6:54 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 6 wrote: ἔτι δὲ καὶ τὴν πόλιν αἰσθάνομαι τὰ μὲν ἤδη σοι προστάττουσαν μεγάλα τελεῖν, ἱπποτροφίας τε καὶ χορηγίας καὶ γυμνασιαρχίας καὶ προστατείας, ἂν δὲ δὴ πόλεμος γένηται, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι καὶ τριηραρχίας [μισθοὺς] καὶ εἰσφορὰς τοσαύτας σοι προστάξουσιν ὅσας σὺ οὐ ῥᾳδίως ὑποίσεις. ὅπου δ᾽ ἂν ἐνδεῶς δόξῃς τι τούτων ποιεῖν, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι σε τιμωρήσονται Ἀθηναῖοι οὐδὲν ἧττον ἢ εἰ τὰ αὑτῶν λάβοιεν κλέπτοντα.
"Moreover I also understand these things that the city already commanded you to pay great taxes for keeping horses and paying the cost of choruses and funding exercise halls and maintaining the presidency [complete guess as to what this means here; “maintaining” may well be the wrong word]. And if indeed there were a war, I know that also they will command you to fund the navy and pay war taxes and such things as these. You will not easily hold up under as many things as these. And whenever you think to do one of these things in a manner that is deficient, I know that the Athenians will punish you no less than if you took their things by theft."

This was an extremely hurried effort. There are probably a host of errors here.
Great that you had an opportunity to rush. How do you number errors? I would say that there is one errror and there are a couple of inaccuracies, but nothing incorrect - are they errors? Rework the part in red, but for the others, let me ask you a few questions to clarify things...
  1. Was he taxed because he kept horses (by choice) or was he required to keep horses for state purposes?
  2. What are some other beneficial things that happened in exercise halls (γυμνάσια), besides exercising?
  3. What type of (charitable social) organisations do (the wives of) rich men preside over in your country? (Of course there are no exact parallels here - this is only to start you thinking)
  4. What was the extent of his contribution to the navy?
  5. What are the "many things" that he will find it difficult to bear up under?
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply

Return to “Other Greek Texts”