Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 22nd, 2014, 12:09 pm

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 7 wrote: πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ὁρῶ σε οἰόμενον πλουτεῖν, καὶ ἀμελῶς μὲν ἔχοντα πρὸς τὸ μηχανᾶσθαι χρήματα, παιδικοῖς δὲ πράγμασι προσέχοντα τὸν νοῦν, ὥσπερ ἐξόν σοι. ὧν ἕνεκα οἰκτίρω σε μή τι ἀνήκεστον κακὸν πάθῃς καὶ εἰς πολλὴν ἀπορίαν καταστῇς.
"And in addition to these things I see you thinking that you are rich, and you *are* indifferent to the acquisition of money, but you dedicate your mind [is this a fair rendering?] to childish affairs just as it is possible for you. Because of these things I pity you not because you have suffered some irreparable evil or you are in great poverty.

The part in bold is my original unaided rendering, and I can see why it is incorrect in contrast to your rendering. However, my current understanding of the subjunctive is fuzzy enough at the moment that it allows *some* of this original rendering to stand. Would you please explain the use of the subjunctive here? I hope that it will help me correct some my misunderstandings about the use of the subjunctive in general.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 22nd, 2014, 12:23 pm

τοσαύτας: We all know by now that I have trouble when a single letter is the only thing standing in front of what I want to be there. I can make that letter disappear or change every time. What can I say? It's a *gift* :roll:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I would say that there is one errror and there are a couple of inaccuracies, but nothing incorrect - are they errors?
This is a great question. I would say for me there are the obvious "This is not what that says." like the example above, and there are the less obvious "This is what the text says but I don't understand it." These for me are exemplified in section 6 by the parts that I added to make sense of ἱπποτροφίας τε καὶ χορηγίας καὶ γυμνασιαρχίας καὶ προστατείας. I feel like they were errors since, even if they happened to be correct, I was not sure about them. I can't let uncertainties go without comment. I am a "controls" freak. :o
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 22nd, 2014, 12:29 pm

On a side note, my New Year's resolution is to actually learn how to use quotes properly. For the professional writing that I have to do, I have always rearranged things to fit the pattern I know to be correct. Now that I have taken to regularly disregarding that, I feel it is past time to fix my deficiencies. Sorry for the off-topic post.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 22nd, 2014, 8:26 pm

Wes Wood wrote:On a{nother} side note,
Wes Wood wrote:This is a great question. I would say for me there are the obvious "This is not what that says." like the example above, and there are the less obvious "This is what the text says but I don't understand it." These for me are exemplified in section 6 by the parts that I added to make sense of ἱπποτροφίας τε καὶ χορηγίας καὶ γυμνασιαρχίας καὶ προστατείας. I feel like they were errors since, even if they happened to be correct, I was not sure about them. I can't let uncertainties go without comment. I am a "controls" freak. :o
For a text discussing any place or era besides your daily life, that world you are reading about needs to come to life in your imagination. The characters take on personalities - as with the meaning of the laughing we discussed recently - and the events have significance in their imagined real time. As you read more about the world that based the model of your imaginary world on, their "real" world becomes more accurate in your imagination.

Sanity is maintaining an awareness of the distinction between the worlds. Creativity is a blurring of sanity. Insanity is reading your own world onto every other.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 23rd, 2014, 8:43 pm

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 8 wrote:καὶ ἐμοὶ μέν, εἴ τι καὶ προσδεηθείην, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι καὶ σὺ γιγνώσκεις ὡς εἰσὶν οἳ καὶ ἐπαρκέσειαν ἂν ὥστε πάνυ μικρὰ πορίσαντες κατακλύσειαν ἂν ἀφθονίᾳ τὴν ἐμὴν δίαιταν: οἱ δὲ σοὶ φίλοι πολὺ ἀρκοῦντα σοῦ μᾶλλον ἔχοντες τῇ ἑαυτῶν κατασκευῇ ἢ σὺ τῇ σῇ ὅμως ὡς παρὰ σοῦ ὠφελησόμενοι ἀποβλέπουσι.
Also if I happen to be in need of something, I know that you also know that there are people who are strong enough that if they provided very little they would flood my way of life with abundance: but your friends have many things that could support you having more in their own preparation than you have in yours nevertheless when they want help they look to you.

This was a rough one...
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 23rd, 2014, 11:15 pm

Xenophon, [i]Oeconomicus[/i], Chapter 2, Section 10 wrote:ὁρῶ γάρ σε, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἕν τι πλουτηρὸν ἔργον ἐπιστάμενον περιουσίαν ποιεῖν. τὸν οὖν ἀπ᾽ ὀλίγων περιποιοῦντα ἐλπίζω ἀπὸ πολλῶν γ᾽ ἂν πάνυ ῥᾳδίως πολλὴν περιουσίαν ποιῆσαι.
Hints:
πλουτηρὸν - enriching, leading to wealth
ἐπιστάμενον - understand how to do something
περιουσίαν / περιποιοῦντα - surplus, abundance (profit) / to cause to remain over and above
ἀπ᾽ ὀλίγων / ἀπὸ πολλῶν - note the pair
ἐλπίζω - suppose
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 24th, 2014, 12:01 pm

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 9 wrote: καὶ ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπεν: ἐγὼ τούτοις, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκ ἔχω ἀντιλέγειν: ἀλλ᾽ ὥρα σοι προστατεύειν ἐμοῦ, ὅπως μὴ τῷ ὄντι οἰκτρὸς γένωμαι. ἀκούσας οὖν ὁ Σωκράτης εἶπε: καὶ οὐ θαυμαστὸν δοκεῖς, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, τοῦτο σαυτῷ ποιεῖν, ὅτι ὀλίγῳ μὲν πρόσθεν, ὅτε ἐγὼ ἔφην πλουτεῖν, ἐγέλασας ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ ὡς οὐδὲ εἰδότι ὅ τι εἴη πλοῦτος, καὶ πρότερον οὐκ ἐπαύσω πρὶν ἐξήλεγξάς με καὶ ὁμολογεῖν ἐποίησας μηδὲ ἑκατοστὸν μέρος τῶν σῶν κεκτῆσθαι, νῦν δὲ κελεύεις προστατεύειν μέ σου καὶ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι ὅπως ἂν μὴ παντάπασιν ἀληθῶς πένης γένοιο;

And Kritoboulus said: “I have no reply to these things, Socrates: but it is time for you to lead me, so I do not in fact become pitiable. [I had originally: so I do not come to a state of being pitiable.]

After Socrates heard these things he said, “And you do not think this is marvelous for you to do, Kritoboulus? Because indeed a little before when I was claiming to be rich, you laughed at me like one who does not know what it is to be rich, and [said] earlier that you would not stop until you had convinced me also to admit I have made not even one hundred parts of what you possess, but now you order me to be your leader and to manage [your affairs] so that you do not truly become a completely poor man?
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 24th, 2014, 12:02 pm

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 10 wrote:ὁρῶ γάρ σε, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἕν τι πλουτηρὸν ἔργον ἐπιστάμενον περιουσίαν ποιεῖν. τὸν οὖν ἀπ᾽ ὀλίγων περιποιοῦντα ἐλπίζω ἀπὸ πολλῶν γ᾽ ἂν πάνυ ῥᾳδίως πολλὴν περιουσίαν ποιῆσαι.
Kritoboulus said, “Socrates, I see you understand one work that leads to wealth: how to make a surplus. I suppose a man who makes a surplus from small means from great means can very easily make a great surplus.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 26th, 2014, 1:12 pm

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 11 wrote:οὔκουν μέμνησαι ἀρτίως ἐν τῷ λόγῳ ὅτε οὐδ᾽ ἀναγρύζειν μοι ἐξουσίαν ἐποίησας, λέγων ὅτι τῷ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ ἵπποις χρῆσθαι οὐκ εἴη χρήματα οἱ ἵπποι οὐδὲ ἡ γῆ οὐδὲ τὰ πρόβατα οὐδὲ ἀργύριον οὐδὲ ἄλλο οὐδὲ ἓν ὅτῳ τις μὴ ἐπίσταιτο χρῆσθαι; εἰσὶ μὲν οὖν αἱ πρόσοδοι ἀπὸ τῶν τοιούτων: ἐμὲ δὲ πῶς τινὶ τούτων οἴει ἂν ἐπιστηθῆναι χρῆσθαι, ᾧ τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐδὲν πώποτ᾽ ἐγένετο τούτων;
Hints:
μέμνησαι ... λέγων - Do you remeber ... saying?
ἀρτίως - just now
ἀναγρύζειν - mutter, grunt
οὐδὲ ἄλλο οὐδὲ ἓν - or anything else
αἱ πρόσοδοι - (subject) - returns, profits
οἴει - do you suspect
- (ἐμὲ) ᾧ me to whom
τὴν ἀρχὴν - not at all (look in LSJ for details)
ᾧ τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐδὲν πώποτ᾽ ἐγένετο τούτων - I who have never ever even had in my possession any single one of them. Word-by-word: ((me) to whom) (not at all) ((not a one) (of them)) (never yet) (was)
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 26th, 2014, 3:49 pm

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 11 wrote: οὔκουν μέμνησαι ἀρτίως ἐν τῷ λόγῳ ὅτε οὐδ᾽ ἀναγρύζειν μοι ἐξουσίαν ἐποίησας, λέγων ὅτι τῷ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ ἵπποις χρῆσθαι οὐκ εἴη χρήματα οἱ ἵπποι οὐδὲ ἡ γῆ οὐδὲ τὰ πρόβατα οὐδὲ ἀργύριον οὐδὲ ἄλλο οὐδὲ ἓν ὅτῳ τις μὴ ἐπίσταιτο χρῆσθαι; εἰσὶ μὲν οὖν αἱ πρόσοδοι ἀπὸ τῶν τοιούτων: ἐμὲ δὲ πῶς τινὶ τούτων οἴει ἂν ἐπιστηθῆναι χρῆσθαι, ᾧ τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐδὲν πώποτ᾽ ἐγένετο τούτων;
Then do you remember just now in the debate when you did not give me the authority to grunt , saying that to the one who did not know how to use them horses are not property and neither are land, sheep, or anything else to the one who does not how to use them? Indeed profits are in fact derived from things like these: but how do you imagine that I would know how to use any of them, who has never had one of these things in my possession?

You saved me from rendering the last section as: "to whom the rule of these things never happened".
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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