Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 27th, 2014, 12:29 am

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 11 wrote:οὔκουν μέμνησαι ἀρτίως ἐν τῷ λόγῳ ὅτε οὐδ᾽ ἀναγρύζειν μοι ἐξουσίαν ἐποίησας, λέγων ὅτι τῷ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ ἵπποις χρῆσθαι οὐκ εἴη χρήματα οἱ ἵπποι οὐδὲ ἡ γῆ οὐδὲ τὰ πρόβατα οὐδὲ ἀργύριον οὐδὲ ἄλλο οὐδὲ ἓν ὅτῳ τις μὴ ἐπίσταιτο χρῆσθαι; εἰσὶ μὲν οὖν αἱ πρόσοδοι ἀπὸ τῶν τοιούτων: ἐμὲ δὲ πῶς τινὶ τούτων οἴει ἂν ἐπιστηθῆναι χρῆσθαι, ᾧ τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐδὲν πώποτ᾽ ἐγένετο τούτων;
Wes Wood wrote:the authority (maybe it would be better English to say, "right" (properly δικαίωμα) or "opportunity" (properly καιρός or εὐκαιρία)) to (even) grunt [I like this better than what I had - Ahhh, so it seems my lackadaisical attitude towards posting text and hints during the silly season has left the tortoise an opportunity to get out in front :shock: ], saying that ("that" is not wrong, but ambiguous, "when you were saying things like") to the one who did not know how to use them horses are not property and neither are land, sheep, or anything else to the one who does not how to use them? Indeed profits are in fact derived from things like these: but how do you imagine that I would know how to use any of them, who has never had one of these things in my possession?
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 11 wrote:ᾧ τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐδὲν πώποτ᾽ ἐγένετο τούτων;
Wes Wood wrote:You saved me from rendering the last section as: "to whom the rule of these things never happened".
That was how I initially wanted to take it too, but I couldn't remember a construction with ἐγένετο and the accusative "in no wise have rulership over those things" somehow imagined to be carried forward from the previous construction, and accusative of respect didn't really fit, but then . . . there is always the lexicon. τὴν ἀρχὴν is something like, "didn't even get out of the starter's gate", "didn't get off the starting blocks", my equivalents are horse racing and sprinting, but I don't currently have any clue which part of life the Greek originated in.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 27th, 2014, 1:22 am

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 12 wrote:ἀλλ᾽ ἐδόκει ἡμῖν, καὶ εἰ μὴ χρήματά τις τύχοι ἔχων, ὅμως εἶναί τις ἐπιστήμη οἰκονομίας. τί οὖν κωλύει καὶ σὲ ἐπίστασθαι; ὅπερ νὴ Δία καὶ αὐλεῖν ἂν κωλύσειεν ἄνθρωπον ἐπίστασθαι, εἰ μήτε αὐτὸς πώποτε κτήσαιτο αὐλοὺς μήτε ἄλλος αὐτῷ παράσχοι ἐν τοῖς αὑτοῦ μανθάνειν: οὕτω δὴ καὶ ἐμοὶ ἔχει περὶ τῆς οἰκονομίας.
Hints:
ἡμῖν - "we" is always a troublesome word. I take it here as that there were many people reclined at the table, "We got the impression (from what you were saying). If we take it as that it was Socrates and Critobulus, just the two, then it almost becomes "agree" (properly συμφωνοῦμεν).
τύχοι ἔχων - this is third person
εἰ ... , ὅμως ... - consider these two phrases as a whole - the ὅμως relates the information of the second phrase to the first.
εἶναί τις ἐπιστήμη - "... a fifth grade school boy ..."
ὅπερ - picks up the τί of the question
αὐλεῖν - goes with ἐπίστασθαι
αὐλοὺς - flute. Remember that this is plural for singular because the there are two flutes in one, like we say the bag-pipes, but there is only one instrument.
παράσχοι - hand over (+inf. of a specific purpose)
ἐν τοῖς αὑτοῦ μανθάνειν - I can't remember seeing a construction like this. The elements are clear enough.
ἐν τοῖς - using the borrowed flute
αὑτοῦ - I take this as something like an improper genitive absolute with the participle supplied from context - "He practicing", or "he borrowing them to learn on them". [Now, saying that is in direct disregard of my grandmother's Proverbs 17:28 advice!!] But anyway the sense is clear enough no matter how the elements are actually put together.
οὕτω - that would be the way
ἔχει (+ adv) - usually understood as "is"
περὶ τῆς οἰκονομίας - an adverbial phrase
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 27th, 2014, 12:01 pm

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 13 wrote:οὔτε γὰρ αὐτὸς ὄργανα χρήματα ἐκεκτήμην, ὥστε μανθάνειν, οὔτε ἄλλος πώποτέ μοι παρέσχε τὰ ἑαυτοῦ διοικεῖν ἀλλ᾽ ἢ σὺ νυνὶ ἐθέλεις παρέχειν. οἱ δὲ δήπου τὸ πρῶτον μανθάνοντες κιθαρίζειν καὶ τὰς λύρας λυμαίνονται: καὶ ἐγὼ δὴ εἰ ἐπιχειρήσαιμι ἐν τῷ σῷ οἴκῳ μανθάνειν οἰκονομεῖν, ἴσως ἂν καταλυμηναίμην ἄν σου τὸν οἶκον.
Hints:
αὐτὸς - first person
ἐκεκτήμην - while the form of this is obviously pluperfect, it actually acts as the past of the perfect.
ὥστε - expresses purpose explicitly, and as such carries the subject across [What an amateur sounding explanation!]
διοικεῖν - the sense here from context is to use, but it is really a stretch of the meaning of διοικεῖν from the sense that is in LSJ.
ἀλλ᾽ ἢ - except
δήπου - perhaps
λύρα - a stringed instrument
λυμαίνονται - outrage, maltreat, harm
ἐπιχειρήσαιμι - try, attempt
ἴσως - probably, perhaps
κατα- - intensive
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 27th, 2014, 1:51 pm

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 14 wrote:πρὸς ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: προθύμως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποφεύγειν μοι πειρᾷ μηδέν με συνωφελῆσαι εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα. οὐ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἀλλ᾽ ὅσα ἔχω καὶ πάνυ προθύμως ἐξηγήσομαί σοι.
Hints:
προθύμως - eagerly
εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα - cf. Acts 3:19 εἰς τὸ ἐξαλειφθῆναι ὑμῶν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, (i.e. εἰς τὸ + a verb with an implied subject and a stated object is a mark of higher style.)
πειράομαι - escape
συνωφελῆσαι - join in aiding
ἐξηγήσομαί - relate in full
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 28th, 2014, 6:01 am

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 15 wrote:οἶμαι δ᾽ ἂν καὶ εἰ ἐπὶ πῦρ ἐλθόντος σου καὶ μὴ ὄντος παρ᾽ ἐμοί, εἰ ἄλλοσε ἡγησάμην ὁπόθεν σοι εἴη λαβεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ἐμέμφου μοι, καὶ εἰ ὕδωρ παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ αἰτοῦντί σοι αὐτὸς μὴ ἔχων ἄλλοσε καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦτο ἤγαγον, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι οὐδ᾽ ἂν τοῦτό μοι ἐμέμφου, καὶ εἰ βουλομένου μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ δείξαιμί σοι πολὺ δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ περὶ μουσικὴν καί σοι χάριν <ἂν> εἰδότας, εἰ ἐθέλοις παρ᾽ αὐτῶν μανθάνειν, τί ἂν ἔτι μοι ταῦτα ποιοῦντι μέμφοιο;
Hints:
εἰ ἐπὶ πῦρ ἐλθόντος σου καὶ μὴ ὄντος παρ᾽ ἐμοί - a double genitive absolute, i.e. both conditions need to be met
ἐπὶ πῦρ ἐλθεῖν - to come for something
ὄντος - neuter
παρ᾽ ἐμοί - at my place (an idiom in the classical era)
ἄλλοσε ... ὁπόθεν - to a place from which
σοι εἴη λαβεῖν - ἔστι σοι λαβεῖν
μέμφεσθαι τινί (τι) - blame somebody (for something)
ἐμέμφου - a second person form of μέμφομαι - blame, censure
ὕδωρ παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ αἰτοῦντί σοι αὐτὸς μὴ ἔχων - ἔχειν τινί τι
παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ αἰτοῦντί - αἰτεῖν τι παρὰ τινός - ask someone for something cf. Matthew 20:20 (Byz.) αἰτοῦσά τι παρ’ αὐτοῦ.
εἰ βουλομένου μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ - another genitive absolute
μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ - μαθεῖν τι παρὰ τινός
δείξαιμί σοι πολὺ δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ περὶ μουσικὴν - δείκνυμι τίνα τινί - point out somebody to somebody (else)
δεινός - clever, skillful. When the word δεινός is used in this meaning, the thing that one is skillful in is expressed using περί (+gen.).
δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ - more skillful than me
σοι χάριν <ἂν> εἰδότας - χάριν εἰδέναι (τινί) - make known (their) favour to you, loosely be grateful to you
μοι ταῦτα ποιοῦντι - The nominative form would be ταῦτα ποιῶν, with the subject either first second or third supplied by the main verb.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 28th, 2014, 7:13 am

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 16 wrote:οὐδὲν ἂν δικαίως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐγὼ τοίνυν σοι δείξω, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, ὅσα νῦν λιπαρεῖς παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ μανθάνειν πολὺ ἄλλους ἐμοῦ δεινοτέρους [τοὺς] περὶ ταῦτα. ὁμολογῶ δὲ μεμεληκέναι μοι οἵτινες ἕκαστα ἐπιστημονέστατοί εἰσι τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει.
Hints:
οὐδὲν - not in the slightest, or nothing. It follows / replies to the τί of the question.
δικαίως - the adverb implies the foregoing verb, but in the right person, i.e. ἂν δικαίως μέμφοιμι were I to censure justly
λιπαρεῖς - you are persisting
πολὺ ἄλλους ἐμοῦ δεινοτέρους - not ἄλλους πολλοὺς δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ, i.e. the πολὺ ... δεινοτέρους balances over the ἄλλους and the ἐμοῦ moves forward into the balance.
μεμεληκέναι - the verb is active in form and almost medio-passive in meaning, to have been an object of care (+dat)
οἵτινες - {αὐτοὺς,} οἵτινες - those, who
ἕκαστα - follows on from περὶ ταῦτα - (for) each one of those things
ἐπιστημονέστατοί - experts
τῶν - almost demonstrative
ἐν τῇ πόλει - a city is naturally a big place in English, so perhaps it would be idiomatic to say "throughout", because they are in the city looking around, rather than outside the city considering it.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 29th, 2014, 2:44 am

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 17 wrote:καταμαθὼν γάρ ποτε ἀπὸ τῶν αὐτῶν ἔργων τοὺς μὲν πάνυ ἀπόρους ὄντας, τοὺς δὲ πάνυ πλουσίους, ἀπεθαύμασα, καὶ ἔδοξέ μοι ἄξιον εἶναι ἐπισκέψεως ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο. καὶ ηὗρον ἐπισκοπῶν πάνυ οἰκείως ταῦτα γιγνόμενα.
Hints:
καταμαθὼν ... ποτε ... ἀπεθαύμασα, καὶ ἔδοξέ μοι - the basic structure here is an aorist participle with these two verbal phrases.
καταμανθάνειν - observe; perceive. A step further than the monkey-see-monkey-do of μανθάνειν.
ἔργων - consider also that this could be possessions (in the sense of them being used for a purpose that could make money - utilisation of possessions, industry (opp. idleness, not "industry" in the post-industrial revolution meaning))
ἀπὸ τῶν αὐτῶν ... τοὺς μὲν ..., τοὺς δὲ - ἀπὸ τῶν αὐτῶν ... -> τοὺς μὲν ..., τοὺς δὲ - ἀπὸ is of course "from", but we are used to emphasising the destination "leads to" - these accusatives are part of the participial phrase.
ἀποθαυμάζειν - really wonder a lot
ἄξιον - worthy of (+ noun in the genitive), but the feeling is much more similar to our worthwhile to (+verbal equivalent of the noun in the genitive)
ἐπίσκεψις - investigation, inquiry. It would be expected that the thing being inquired into would be in the genitive, i.e. the phrase ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο is NOT the thing inquired into. The thing being inquired into is probably the way that the two groups (the τοὺς μὲν ..., τοὺς δὲ) do the same things (the τῶν αὐτῶν ἔργων) with such different results.
ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο - this is the process of the inquiry, not the subject or result of it. That is to say that the inquiry expressed by the ἐπίσκεψις is to ask the wh- questions, in this case ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο (in indirect speech, i.e. τί ἐστιν τοῦτο; in direct speech), what is this thing that leads one groups to dire straits and the other to wealth. [FWIW. The end of the inquiry is expressed by the verb, which comes up in the next phrase, viz. εὑρεῖν. The verbal equivalent of ἐπίσκεψις, ἐπισκοπεῖν is used in the same way by Xenophon of the question that it is suggested that one should ask oneself after reading the inscription at the Delphic oracle. (i.e. τὶς εἰμί)]
οἰκείως - in a way that is (really quite) familiar (to us)

[Sorry, this one's gone and gotten itself a bit wordy-like and explanational. I hope you can distance yourself from the analytical thinking that this will have evoked and still just "read".]
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 29th, 2014, 2:23 pm

Xenophon, [i]Estate manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 18 wrote:τοὺς μὲν γὰρ εἰκῇ ταῦτα πράττοντας ζημιουμένους ἑώρων, τοὺς δὲ γνώμῃ συντεταμένῃ ἐπιμελουμένους καὶ θᾶττον καὶ ῥᾷον καὶ κερδαλεώτερον κατέγνων πράττοντας. παρ᾽ ὧν ἂν καὶ σὲ οἶμαι, εἰ βούλοιο, μαθόντα, εἴ σοι ὁ θεὸς μὴ ἐναντιοῖτο, πάνυ ἂν δεινὸν χρηματιστὴν γενέσθαι.
Hints:
εἰκῇ - without plan
πράττοντας - πράσσοντας would be the Koine form, but actually, ποιοῦντας would be the normal form.
ζημιουμένους - suffer loss
ἑώρων - imperfect form, first person singular
γνώμῃ συντεταμένῃ - with an intent with all powers of thought brought to bear on it
ἐπιμελουμένους - paying careful attention to
θᾶττον - more quickly
ῥᾷον - easily
κερδαλεώτερον - in a way that makes more gain
κατέγνων - I have been observing
παρ᾽ ὧν ἂν καὶ σὲ οἶμαι, εἰ βούλοιο, μαθόντα - the structure is built up balance on the οἶμαι, first straddled by καὶ σὲ and εἰ βούλοιο, and then by παρ᾽ ὧν ἂν and μαθόντα.
παρ᾽ ὧν - from whom
μαθόντα - learn (by example)
ἐναντιοῖτο - oppose, withstand
δεινὸν - skillful
χρηματιστὴν - money-getter
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 30th, 2014, 1:56 am

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 12 wrote:ἀλλ᾽ ἐδόκει ἡμῖν, καὶ εἰ μὴ χρήματά τις τύχοι ἔχων, ὅμως εἶναί τις ἐπιστήμη οἰκονομίας. τί οὖν κωλύει καὶ σὲ ἐπίστασθαι; ὅπερ νὴ Δία καὶ αὐλεῖν ἂν κωλύσειεν ἄνθρωπον ἐπίστασθαι, εἰ μήτε αὐτὸς πώποτε κτήσαιτο αὐλοὺς μήτε ἄλλος αὐτῷ παράσχοι ἐν τοῖς αὑτοῦ μανθάνειν: οὕτω δὴ καὶ ἐμοὶ ἔχει περὶ τῆς οἰκονομίας.
"But it seemed to us also that if a person does not happen to have money, he may nevertheless be knowledgable about stewardship. What then hinders you from knowing about it?"

"The very same thing, by Jupiter, that would also prevent a man from knowing how to play the flute if he himself never possessed a flute nor had another person allow him to learn using his. That is exactly how it is with me concerning stewardship."
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 30th, 2014, 6:47 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 12 wrote:... ἐδόκει ἡμῖν, ... εἶναί τις ἐπιστήμη οἰκονομίας.
it seemed to us ... he may be knowledgable about stewardship.
That rendering seems somewhat like you were trying to pour milk into a glass on the table, while still standing at the fridge door. You had an idea about where you wanted it to go, but it ended up going everywhere, and well ... Now we we are to clean up the mess.

To try a different approach... How would you translate that without twisting it to the sense that you think it should have from context? Let's take it back to beginners' class first-five-lessons basics, and posit it as, "τις ἐπιστήμη οἰκονομίας as the subject of the verb ending in -ει, i.e. ἐδόκει. We know from experience that that verb expects an infinitive, and hey presto, we find εἶναί available, then finally garnish it with the ἡμῖν as a dative of <supply an appropriate name from Wallace's GGBB>, which we know from experience is also expected by the ἐδόκει construction.

That comes out of the washer as something like, "A certain science of household management seemed to us to be."
Wes Wood wrote:παράσχοι
allow
Convince me.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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