Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 7th, 2015, 1:05 am

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 13 wrote: οὔτε γὰρ αὐτὸς ὄργανα χρήματα ἐκεκτήμην, ὥστε μανθάνειν, οὔτε ἄλλος πώποτέ μοι παρέσχε τὰ ἑαυτοῦ διοικεῖν ἀλλ᾽ ἢ σὺ νυνὶ ἐθέλεις παρέχειν. οἱ δὲ δήπου τὸ πρῶτον μανθάνοντες κιθαρίζειν καὶ τὰς λύρας λυμαίνονται: καὶ ἐγὼ δὴ εἰ ἐπιχειρήσαιμι ἐν τῷ σῷ οἴκῳ μανθάνειν οἰκονομεῖν, ἴσως ἂν καταλυμηναίμην ἄν σου τὸν οἶκον.
"Neither have I myself possessed the things needed to make money, to allow me the opportunity to learn how to use them, nor have I had another person allow me to manage his things unless you are going to allow me to manage yours right this instant. But perhaps the ones who are learning to play the lyre for the first time destroy them, and what is more if I myself attempted to learn management using your house, I would probably utterly destroy your estate."
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 7th, 2015, 1:37 am

Wes Wood wrote:παράσχοι...allow
Stephen Hughes wrote:Convince me.
I am working on convincing myself. :lol: I will get back to you on this eventually.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 7th, 2015, 10:56 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:παράσχοι...allow
Stephen Hughes wrote:Convince me.
I am working on convincing myself. :lol: I will get back to you on this eventually.
It's not wrong. I want to know how you logically came to that conclusion.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 8th, 2015, 2:40 am

"μήτε ἄλλος αὐτῷ παράσχοι ἐν τοῖς αὑτοῦ μανθάνειν"

I read αὑτοῦ as referring to the owner of the flute without the need to supply anything else. If he never owned a flute, he could still have borrowed one to practice on, and it seems to me he is trying to rule out this possibility as well. What gives me greatest pause is that I am not 100% sure what the antecedent of αὑτοῦ is.

I am not sure if this moves the discussion along or sets it back. I usually misunderstand the question a few time before the intended meaning makes it through my painfully dense cranium. :oops:
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 8th, 2015, 11:34 am

Wes Wood wrote:"μήτε ἄλλος αὐτῷ παράσχοι ἐν τοῖς αὑτοῦ μανθάνειν"

I read αὑτοῦ as referring to the owner of the flute without the need to supply anything else. If he never owned a flute, he could still have borrowed one to practice on, and it seems to me he is trying to rule out this possibility as well. What gives me greatest pause is that I am not 100% sure what the antecedent of αὑτοῦ is.

I am not sure if this moves the discussion along or sets it back. I usually misunderstand the question a few time before the intended meaning makes it through my painfully dense cranium. :oops:
Just for an overture, the ἄλλος "somebody else" here is interesting because it clearly illustrates the meaning of the αὐτός "I myself". I think the respite from your "not 100% sure" worry will come with an understanding of παράσχοι.

It seems to me that the sense of the ὄργανα is still carried forward to this section too. I took the "fuller" syntax here to be μήτε ἄλλος αὐτῷ παράσχοι {ὄργανα} ἐν τοῖς {ὀργάνοις} αὑτοῦ μανθάνειν. I realise that παρέχειν is listed with an infinitive construction in LSJ, but I think this is an infinitive of purpose.

The painfully vague question is about which sentence construction you have taken this as. Both are possible I think.

I'm just thinking that, "Hey, you can borrow these to learn on." and he takes them home out of earshot is more convenient than, "Come over anytime and practice." and he comes over every day and plays loudly and poorly for a few hours.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 8th, 2015, 1:50 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: I'm just thinking that, "Hey, you can borrow these to learn on." and he takes them home out of earshot is more convenient than, "Come over anytime and practice." and he comes over every day and plays loudly and poorly for a few hours.
One thing I do like about the gloss "allow" here is that the English word is vague enough to allow either of these interpretations. It says that he has permission to use them, but it doesn't specify what that action looks like. I guess it could even cover a situation where a person uses something in a way that would cause it to be destroyed. Perhaps he could be allowed to melt the flute down and make a tiny statue. I think it is obvious I am talking about the English word now here.

Where I really felt like I was taking a chance was with my translation of ἐν τοῖς αὑτοῦ. I believe that I was unsure whether to take it with παράσχοι or with μανθάνειν. In my original translation, I believe I took it as relating to μανθάνειν. I felt like that the splitting of the datives might be an indication that the first was with παράσχοι and the second was with μαθεῖν.

If you don't mind my asking, how would you translate the two excerpts below? My reason for asking relates both to the meaning of παρεχω and what case (and usage) may be linked to each verbal element.

ἵνα καὶ τῆς πλινθίνης ἀφανισθείσης ὑπὸ τῆς ἐπομβρίας ἡ λιθίνη μείνασα παράσχῃ μαθεῖν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις τὰ ἐγγεγραμμένα δηλοῦσα καὶ πλινθίνην ὑπ᾽ αὐτῶν ἀνατεθῆναι.

ἀλλὰ καὶ τὴν κατ᾽ ἄλλου μεμηχανημένην τιμωρίαν ταύτην ἐκείνου ποιήσαντος εἶναι καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις μαθεῖν οὕτως γνῶναι παρεσχηκότος,
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 8th, 2015, 2:26 pm

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 14 wrote:πρὸς ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: προθύμως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποφεύγειν μοι πειρᾷ μηδέν με συνωφελῆσαι εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα πράγματα. οὐ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἀλλ᾽ ὅσα ἔχω καὶ πάνυ προθύμως ἐξηγήσομαί σοι.
But to these things Kritoboulus said: “Indeed, you eagerly run from me making no effort to join in relieving me from my distressing affairs that it would be easy to rescue me from."

Socrates said, “No, by Jupiter, certainly not, but as much as I have [knowledge of] I will very eagerly explain to you."

Is the part in bold acceptable?
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 8th, 2015, 3:14 pm

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 15 wrote:οἶμαι δ᾽ ἂν καὶ εἰ ἐπὶ πῦρ ἐλθόντος σου καὶ μὴ ὄντος παρ᾽ ἐμοί, εἰ ἄλλοσε ἡγησάμην ὁπόθεν σοι εἴη λαβεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ἐμέμφου μοι, καὶ εἰ ὕδωρ παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ αἰτοῦντί σοι αὐτὸς μὴ ἔχων ἄλλοσε καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦτο ἤγαγον, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι οὐδ᾽ ἂν τοῦτό μοι ἐμέμφου, καὶ εἰ βουλομένου μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ δείξαιμί σοι πολὺ δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ περὶ μουσικὴν καί σοι χάριν <ἂν> εἰδότας, εἰ ἐθέλοις παρ᾽ αὐτῶν μανθάνειν, τί ἂν ἔτι μοι ταῦτα ποιοῦντι μέμφοιο;
"But I suppose if you came to get fire from me and I did not have any at my house, if I led you from to a place where you might get fire, you would not blame me. And if you requested water from me and I did not have any and I led you to it, I know that you would not blame this on me either. And if when you were wanting to learn to play music from me I showed you someone much more skillful than I am about music and they would acknowledge their debt to you if you wanted to learn from them, why would you still blame me for doing these things?"
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 11th, 2015, 3:48 pm

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 16 wrote:οὐδὲν ἂν δικαίως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐγὼ τοίνυν σοι δείξω, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, ὅσα νῦν λιπαρεῖς παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ μανθάνειν πολὺ ἄλλους ἐμοῦ δεινοτέρους [τοὺς] περὶ ταῦτα. ὁμολογῶ δὲ μεμεληκέναι μοι οἵτινες ἕκαστα ἐπιστημονέστατοί εἰσι τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει.
“I could find no fault justly, Socrates.”

I will therefore show you, Kritoboulus, that for all the things you now insist on learning from me [there are] many others [who] are more skillful in these areas [than I am]. But I confess that I have taken an interest in knowing each of those who are the most knowledgeable of the people throughout the city.

I confess that the part in bold is my attempt at a translation of a word I do not yet understand. It has wrapped itself around my head, but I have not yet begun to wrap my head around it. :?
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 11th, 2015, 4:24 pm

Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 17 wrote:καταμαθὼν γάρ ποτε ἀπὸ τῶν αὐτῶν ἔργων τοὺς μὲν πάνυ ἀπόρους ὄντας, τοὺς δὲ πάνυ πλουσίους, ἀπεθαύμασα, καὶ ἔδοξέ μοι ἄξιον εἶναι ἐπισκέψεως ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο. καὶ ηὗρον ἐπισκοπῶν πάνυ οἰκείως ταῦτα γιγνόμενα.
"For once I understood that some are very poor but others are rich as a result of the same actions [in trade, use of their property, κτλ.], I marveled. And it seemed to me to be worthy of inspection [to find out] how this might be. And I have found while looking into these matters that they occur in a very familiar way."
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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