Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I don't quite understand what you are saying here. I'm wary that you are understanding that the ἔτι refers to the continuation of blaming over a long time frame, which I don't think is true for those hypothetical real-life examples, or for this mooted point about learning music either. ἔτι is modifying something in the future, "still (in the same line of thought)", "going on further", "taking that further again to a hypothetical point".
I don't think my understanding or my example was correct. Maybe this will be an improvement on my earlier effort, "You wouldn't blame me for the previous things, why would you still blame me for other efforts that don't go quite as far as the others I spoke of but still provide you a way to get what you need." I am beginning to think that perhaps I may understand the word "still" differently than you. For example: "His mum gave him an apple for his Maths teacher, and another for his English teacher, and _still_
__ another for his Science teacher." Strangely, this is what I would say in this scenario, but only to the last item in a sequence. If it had more three, I would have said, another...another...another....and still another.
The use of these little words often vary from speaker to speaker in English, hence the patient / extended opportunity for self exploration in English. I would put "yet another apple" in that blank.
Wes Wood wrote:I see your point and I think my imagination of distinctions that weren't intended along with my apparently flexible use of "still" all contributed to my misunderstanding. I don't know if this helps you understand what I was thinking, but I am confident I understand what you were meaning now.
It seems flexible, because your understanding of the Greek word is beginning to exceed the help give by glosses. Waffle-mouthed as I tend to be, I'm not the best person suited to giving you a conspectus of the usages of ἔτι, but let's at least look at New Testament examples.
A single example of ἔτι, not in a sequence of three with μέμφεσθαι can be found at:
9:19 wrote:Ἐρεῖς οὖν μοι, Τί ἔτι μέμφεται; "Why does he still find fault?" Τῷ γὰρ βουλήματι αὐτοῦ τίς ἀνθέστηκεν;
That is one New Testament use of ἔτι which is quite close to this one in Xenophon, but it doesn't really give us a clue as to whether μέμφεσθαι is a attitude or an action. The phrase αἰτίαν εὑρίσκειν ἐν τινί, "find a basis for a charge" is obviously a time by time thing, because individual things are looked for.
Matthew 26:65 wrote:Τότε ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς διέρρηξεν τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτοῦ, λέγων ὅτι Ἐβλασφήμησεν· τί ἔτι χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; Ἴδε, νῦν ἠκούσατε τὴν βλασφημίαν αὐτοῦ.
Does this mean that there was no need of witnesses because he had confessed, or that there was no need of further witnesses to be called? It comes down to the understanding of ἔτι. Witnesses are individual people, who speak in turn or from their own point of view (theoretically at least). If the sentence did not have ἔτι, it would be τί ... χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; Why do we need witnesses? (at all) ( = His own testimony is enough). With the ἔτι, the question τί ἔτι χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; refers to the need to call and listen to further witnesses. Off topic a little - by now you'll have long since spent your anger at my diversions - if there is a distinction to be made between the "need" of χρείαν ἔχειν and the "need" of ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστιν, it would be that χρείαν ἔχειν would mean "we don't have enough", and ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστιν "we are required to", "we are under compulsion to". Bearing in mind that distinction, the τί ἔτι χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; We have enough witnesses (a witness being a witness and the prisoner / defendant not classed as a witness), i.e. we don't have need of more is best expressed as it has been. The obvious question then is whether ἔτι goes with χρείαν ἔχομεν which would be continuous, or with χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων which would be one-by-one.
Matthew 18:16 wrote:ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀκούσῃ, παράλαβε μετὰ σοῦ ἔτι ἕνα ἢ δύο, ἵνα ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων ἢ τριῶν σταθῇ πᾶν ῥῆμα·
This is another similar example. In addition to yourself, is the basic meaning.
The most common meaning is an action which goes on, as in the first example here:
Mark 5:35 wrote:Ἔτι αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος, ἔρχονται ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀρχισυναγώγου, λέγοντες ὅτι Ἡ θυγάτηρ σου ἀπέθανεν· τί ἔτι σκύλλεις τὸν διδάσκαλον;
The description of an ongoing action, and an action that doesn't need to go on after now.