πλάνη active or passive sense.
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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πλάνη active or passive sense.
ἡ γὰρ παράκλησις ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐκ πλάνης οὐδὲ ἐξ ἀκαθαρσίας οὐδὲ ἐν δόλῳ, [1 Thessalonians 2:3]
Most take πλάνη here and elsewhere in the New Testament in the passive sense of error (having been deceived); but some in the active sense of deceit (the action or practice of deceiving others).
I am trying to make sense of the BDAG entry, and have three questions.
Their definition is 'wandering fr. the path of truth, error, delusion, deceit, deception to which one is subject.'
1) I don't understand how 'deceit' can be given as a possible translation, since by definition it refers to the action or practice of deceiving others, not to being subject to deceit.
2) 'see New Docs 2, 94 on frequent use in pap in sense of 'deceit' ' Well, I looked this up in Horsley 'New Documents etc., vol.2':
and it seems to me to say the opposite. It gives one instance from BGU 1208 (of αὐθεντεῖν fame) where it has been taken to mean deceit, and then says that the passive sense of 'error, delusion' is attested by a number of papyri. So is BDAG in error itself here?
3) Sorry for my ignorance, but I am not sure what BDAG means by 'in our literature'. Is it distinguishing it from the papyri - ie in the papyri it often (it claims) means 'deceit' (which I am taking to be in the active sense of deceiving), but 'in our literature' it is used only in the passive sense. I would have thought that the literature (in a broad sense) that BDAG is interested in would have included koine papyri.
Andrew
Most take πλάνη here and elsewhere in the New Testament in the passive sense of error (having been deceived); but some in the active sense of deceit (the action or practice of deceiving others).
I am trying to make sense of the BDAG entry, and have three questions.
Their definition is 'wandering fr. the path of truth, error, delusion, deceit, deception to which one is subject.'
1) I don't understand how 'deceit' can be given as a possible translation, since by definition it refers to the action or practice of deceiving others, not to being subject to deceit.
2) 'see New Docs 2, 94 on frequent use in pap in sense of 'deceit' ' Well, I looked this up in Horsley 'New Documents etc., vol.2':
and it seems to me to say the opposite. It gives one instance from BGU 1208 (of αὐθεντεῖν fame) where it has been taken to mean deceit, and then says that the passive sense of 'error, delusion' is attested by a number of papyri. So is BDAG in error itself here?
3) Sorry for my ignorance, but I am not sure what BDAG means by 'in our literature'. Is it distinguishing it from the papyri - ie in the papyri it often (it claims) means 'deceit' (which I am taking to be in the active sense of deceiving), but 'in our literature' it is used only in the passive sense. I would have thought that the literature (in a broad sense) that BDAG is interested in would have included koine papyri.
Andrew
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
1) Deceit in English can also refer to the quality of deception. From dictionary.com:
Has anyone considered or is anyone working on a revision to MM?
2) My understanding of BDAG is that it focuses on the NT and other early Christian literature, and not the papyri per se, though they will reference MM and other resources which take the papyri into account on occasion.the quality of being deceitful; duplicity; falseness: a man full of deceit.
Has anyone considered or is anyone working on a revision to MM?
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
Not sure "active" or "passive" is the best term for a noun. Maybe process vs. result is better.
1. BDAG offers definitions, not merely glosses. You have to read the whole line, not just pick out the words. So it is not merely "deceit" but "deceit ... to which one is subject." This refers to an error that someone has as the result of deception, or your "passive" sense.
2. Looks like Danker misread the entry in New Docs. This shows the importance of following up the references.
3. BDAG's "in our literature" is listed in the front matter (I don't have it here with me). It refers to the NT, the Apostolic Fathers, and perhaps other early Christian literature. It generally does not include the documentary papyri.
1. BDAG offers definitions, not merely glosses. You have to read the whole line, not just pick out the words. So it is not merely "deceit" but "deceit ... to which one is subject." This refers to an error that someone has as the result of deception, or your "passive" sense.
2. Looks like Danker misread the entry in New Docs. This shows the importance of following up the references.
3. BDAG's "in our literature" is listed in the front matter (I don't have it here with me). It refers to the NT, the Apostolic Fathers, and perhaps other early Christian literature. It generally does not include the documentary papyri.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
I would argue that πλανᾶσθαι is fundamentally an intransitive middle verb and that the active πλανᾶν is its causative. I really think the verb ought to be lemmatized in the middle voice-form. Certainly the verb is a denominative based upon the noun ἡ πλάνη.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
John Lee and G. H. R Horsley were, but nothing has been heard on that front for a decade or so.Barry Hofstetter wrote:Has anyone considered or is anyone working on a revision to MM?
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
Thanks for all your help with this.
Andrew
Surely the italicised words are meant as glosses? That was the point I was trying to make - the meaning would be clear as a definition, but it seems to contradict itself by giving 'deceit' as a gloss.Stephen Carlson wrote:BDAG offers definitions, not merely glosses. You have to read the whole line, not just pick out the words."
Wouldn't 'process' be ambiguous between the process of deceiving and that of being deceived?Stephen Carlson wrote:Not sure "active" or "passive" is the best term for a noun. Maybe process vs. result is better.
This would still give the same sense that I have called 'active', would it not? 'A man full of deceit' is one who deceives others, surely, not one who has been deceived?Barry Hofstetter wrote:Deceit in English can also refer to the quality of deception. From dictionary.com:
the quality of being deceitful; duplicity; falseness: a man full of deceit.
I had read BDAG as saying that πλάνη was derived from πλανάω. Have they got it the wrong way around?cwconrad wrote:Certainly the verb is a denominative based upon the noun ἡ πλάνη.
Andrew
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
I thought that Lee and Horsley had not been quiet and that they'd declared the project dead (or at least permanently stalled). I could try and find out more today if I go in to the library.MAubrey wrote:John Lee and G. H. R Horsley were, but nothing has been heard on that front for a decade or so.Barry Hofstetter wrote:Has anyone considered or is anyone working on a revision to MM?
Hefin Jones
instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
As usual spoke too soon... a google search turned this up:Hefin J. Jones wrote:I thought that Lee and Horsley had not been quiet and that they'd declared the project dead (or at least permanently stalled). I could try and find out more today if I go in to the library.
"A 10-year project is now under way to produce a new Lexicon of Epigraphic and Papyrus Parallels to the New Testament Vocabulary. According to Gregory Horsley (email May 2012) this will be published, but there is not a target date."
from http://hst.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/ ... OOLS14.pdf
Hefin Jones
instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
I work with the model of three possibilities not two, it seems clear to me but maybe I can't express it, so be patient with my lack of terminology - I know that this probably seems like gibberish, I probably even if I did have terms to describe it, I couldn't - anyway, perhaps you would like to consider it...Stephen Carlson wrote:Not sure "active" or "passive" is the best term for a noun. Maybe process vs. result is better.
- What goes into the meaning - "delusion" (in the sense that sb is doing it sb else), "deception" (the strategy to decieve), I would add "deceitfulness"
- The meaning of the word as the context within which something happens - deceit (This is the thing looked at in itself - possibly with other things happening at the same time as it), perhaps "delusion" could be here too.
- What comes out of the meaning - error (sb might do this after they have been deceived), mistake
To compose idiomatically in Greek, I think it is useful to note which of these three ways a word is used, then our writing can sound less un-Greek.
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For the verses in the New Testament, perhaps they could be categorised as
This is what is feared will deceive others – Type 1 (also Ephesians 4:14, 1 Thessalonians 2:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 4:6, Jude 11 – if that means Baalam was making other have the wrong idea)Matthew 27:64 wrote:καὶ ἔσται ἡ ἐσχάτη πλάνη χείρων τῆς πρώτης.
Other actions are happening now that this is happening – Type 2 [the authour of second Peter is often unique in their Greek]2 Peter 2:18 wrote:τοὺς ὄντως ἀποφυγόντας τοὺς ἐν πλάνῃ ἀναστρεφομένους,
They already did things. – Type 3 (also Jude 11 – if that means Baalam was wrong himself and therefore prophesying)Romans 1:27 wrote:καὶ τὴν ἀντιμισθίαν ἣν ἔδει τῆς πλάνης αὐτῶν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς ἀπολαμβάνοντες.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: πλάνη active or passive sense.
Heinrich Meyer on Ephesians 4:14:
To take πλάνη as seduction (Luther, Beza, and others, including Rückert, Matthies, Baumgarten-Crusius, de Wette) is not to be justified by linguistic usage, since it always (also 2 Th 2:11) means error, delusion, going astray; as with the Greek writers also it never has that active meaning.