John 8:25

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H. Derksen
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Re: John 8:25

Post by H. Derksen » September 6th, 2012, 1:13 pm

Question: “Who are you?”

Answer: “The Beginning; that which also speaks to you.”

Alternative: ““The beginning; even the one which speaks to you.”

Cf. Col. 1:18; Rev. 3:14; 21:6; 22:13.

Possible?
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Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:25

Post by Scott Lawson » September 7th, 2012, 12:07 pm

H. Derksen wrote:Question: “Who are you?”

Answer: “The Beginning; that which also speaks to you.”

Alternative: ““The beginning; even the one which speaks to you.”

Cf. Col. 1:18; Rev. 3:14; 21:6; 22:13.

Possible?
No.
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Scott Lawson

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 8:25

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 8th, 2012, 7:15 am

ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ· Σὺ τίς εἶ; εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν;

Please note that Τὴν ἀρχὴν is accusative, and can't be the answer to the question -- it would have to in the nominative case. ὅ τι reads as the neuter singular in the NAS and SBL critical texts, and makes best sense as the direct object of λαλῶ. So no, your reading of the text is not possible as the text stands.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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cwconrad
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Re: John 8:25

Post by cwconrad » September 8th, 2012, 10:02 am

H. Derksen wrote:Question: “Who are you?”

Answer: “The Beginning; that which also speaks to you.”

Alternative: ““The beginning; even the one which speaks to you.”

Cf. Col. 1:18; Rev. 3:14; 21:6; 22:13.

Possible?
Forum rules clearly indicate that posters should cite the Greek text to be discussed. Not only have you not done so, but the "answer" and "alternative" that you suggest give readers the impression that you are working from an interlinear version and trying to read the sequence of Greek words as if that sequence echoed standard English word-order. When and how have you learned Biblical Greek -- or have you ever had any formal instruction or systematic self-teaching in Biblical Greek?
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

LarryMBall
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Re: John 8:25

Post by LarryMBall » January 10th, 2019, 8:58 pm

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Jesus said to them (this is the 2nd clause of the verse.

τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; This is the third and final clause

How about this? τὴν ἀρχὴν is in the accusative so it is the direct object of the verb λαλῶ. It receives the action of the verb. Buried in the verb is the subject of this clause. In an English script it would follow the verb. λαλῶ is 1st pers sing so it obviously refers to Jesus.

They are asking "Who are you" Jesus tells them "That which even I am telling you: THE BEGINNING. This answer fits with the theology of John
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LarryMBall
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Re: John 8:25

Post by LarryMBall » January 10th, 2019, 9:06 pm

Textus Receptua and Nestle Aland both use ὅ τι Now the interesting thing to me is that the τι has no accent and therefore is an indefinite pronoun. So, how is ὅ τι to be translated?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 8:25

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 11th, 2019, 8:24 am

LarryMBall wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 9:06 pm
Textus Receptua and Nestle Aland both use ὅ τι Now the interesting thing to me is that the τι has no accent and therefore is an indefinite pronoun. So, how is ὅ τι to be translated?
An Exegetical Summary of John 1-8[1] says this:
TEXT—Some manuscripts read ὅ τι ‘that-which something’, others read ὅτι ‘that’, others are indeterminate between ὅ τι ‘that-which something’ and ὅτι ‘that’. Also some Latin manuscripts plus a patristic quotation read qui ‘which’. GNT reads ‘that-which something’ with a B rating, indicating that the text is almost certain.
[1] Trail, R. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of John 1–9 (p. 433). Dallas, TX: SIL International.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 8:25

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 11th, 2019, 8:30 am

While I have the Exegetical Summary open ... I think this is helpful:
LEXICON—a. ἀρχή (LN 67.65) ([BAGD 1.b, p. 112):, ‘at all’ [BAGD], ‘beginning’ [BAGD, LN]. The question Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; ‘Why do I speak to you at all? [NRSV] is also translated ‘How is it that I can speak to you at all?’ or ‘(To begin with,) why do I as much as speak to you?’ [BAGD], ‘What have I been saying to you from the beginning?’ [NASB], ‘What can I even begin to say to you?’ [NICNT2]. This question is also translated as a statement: ‘What I have told you from the very beginning’ [TEV], ‘Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning’ [KJV], ‘What I have told you from the beginning/outset’ [NET, NJB], ‘What I have been telling you from the beginning’ [AB], ‘What I have told you all along’ [REB], ‘Just what I have been claiming all along’ [NIV], ‘The one I have always claimed to be’ [NLT], ‘Precisely that which I also declare to you’ [Gdt], ‘Exactly what I am also telling you’ [NTC], ‘Just what I am telling you’ [WBC], ‘I am what I have told you (I was) from the beginning’ [NCV, Ph], ‘I am exactly who I told you at the beginning’ [CEV]. This noun denotes a point in time at the beginning of a duration [LN]. This noun is used adverbially to mean ‘at all’ [BAGD, LN].
Trail, R. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of John 1–9 (p. 433). Dallas, TX: SIL International.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Tony Pope
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Re: John 8:25

Post by Tony Pope » January 11th, 2019, 10:34 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 8:24 am
LarryMBall wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 9:06 pm
Textus Receptua and Nestle Aland both use ὅ τι Now the interesting thing to me is that the τι has no accent and therefore is an indefinite pronoun. So, how is ὅ τι to be translated?
An Exegetical Summary of John 1-8[1] says this:
TEXT—Some manuscripts read ὅ τι ‘that-which something’, others read ὅτι ‘that’, others are indeterminate between ὅ τι ‘that-which something’ and ὅτι ‘that’. Also some Latin manuscripts plus a patristic quotation read qui ‘which’. GNT reads ‘that-which something’ with a B rating, indicating that the text is almost certain.
[1] Trail, R. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of John 1–9 (p. 433). Dallas, TX: SIL International.
Separating ὅτι into two words is apparently an editorial device, intended to distinguish the neuter of ὅστις from the particle ὅτι. (See Iver Larsen's post on p. 4 of this thread, where he cites LSJ.) It is not really two words, so there is no "something" to be considered. Westcott & Hort printed ὅτι everywhere in the NT on the grounds that it was unnecessary to make this distinction, but most editors do make it.

If by Textus Receptus, the editions of Elzevir is meant, they printed ὅ, τι. But Erasmus and Stephanus printed ὅτι. However, this has no necessary bearing on whether they interpreted the word as the pronoun or the particle.

It's difficult to see how one can say some manuscripts read it as one word and some as two words unless the scribe made a mark in between. Regardless of whether there is a word break, omicron is not joined on to the following letter, either in the uncial script of the early manuscripts or the later minuscule script, and to judge whether the slight gap after the omicron means a break between two words is surely precarious.
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LarryMBall
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Re: John 8:25

Post by LarryMBall » January 14th, 2019, 1:20 pm

John 8:25, In the first part of this verse, the Jews ask Jesus who He is. In the second half He answers. "εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν;" Okay, let's look at this grammatically. (a) Jesus said to them. The "said" is aorist. The "them" ( αὐτοῖς ) is dative and can only be the indirect object of the verb "said" (εἶπεν) So, and this is very important, what is the direct object of this verb? The direct object would have to be in the accusative. We have 3 words in the accusative; τὴν ἀρχὴν, ὅ, τι. The words ὅ, τι fit the flow of meaning in the conversation. ὅ, τι means "That which".

So at this point in the analysis we have "Jesus said to them that which" Next we have the conjunction κα. This is a conjunction that can have several meanings. Here it means "even". Then we have " λαλῶ ὑμῖν; the "λαλῶ" is a verb that is 1st person, present, indicative, active. In the KJV it is translated as being in the perfect but this is wrong. Translated, in this context, it would be best to say "I am saying to you" Okay nows a problem. The "to you" is dative and cannot be the direct object of this verb. The DO has to be accusative. But wait. We have an accusative word we have not used it is "τὴν ἀρχὴν", the Beginning. It needs to be placed here.

So now we have to translate this part of the verb in this manner "Jesus said to them, "That which even I am saying to you; The Beginning" In verse 27 it is written that the Jews did not understand that He was talking to them about the Father
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