Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 23rd, 2015, 1:35 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 17 wrote:καταμαθὼν γάρ ποτε ἀπὸ τῶν αὐτῶν ἔργων τοὺς μὲν πάνυ ἀπόρους ὄντας, τοὺς δὲ πάνυ πλουσίους, ἀπεθαύμασα, καὶ ἔδοξέ μοι ἄξιον εἶναι ἐπισκέψεως ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο. καὶ ηὗρον ἐπισκοπῶν πάνυ οἰκείως ταῦτα γιγνόμενα.
"For once I understood that some are very poor but others are rich as a result of the same actions [in trade, use of their property, κτλ.], I marveled. And it seemed to me to be worthy of inspection [to find out] how this might be. And I have found while looking into these matters that they occur in a very familiar way."
ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο - [to find out] how this might be - {asking}, "Just what is (the difference) here?" This is is form that the ἐπίσκεψις takes. In that way it is like they are the same, but the case is not the same.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 23rd, 2015, 10:54 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 18 wrote:τοὺς μὲν γὰρ εἰκῇ ταῦτα πράττοντας ζημιουμένους ἑώρων, τοὺς δὲ γνώμῃ συντεταμένῃ ἐπιμελουμένους καὶ θᾶττον καὶ ῥᾷον καὶ κερδαλεώτερον κατέγνων πράττοντας. παρ᾽ ὧν ἂν καὶ σὲ οἶμαι, εἰ βούλοιο, μαθόντα, εἴ σοι ὁ θεὸς μὴ ἐναντιοῖτο, πάνυ ἂν δεινὸν χρηματιστὴν γενέσθαι.
"For I saw time and again some who were doing these things without a plan suffer loss, but I discovered others who were completely focused on doing these things doing them more quickly and more easily and more gainfully. From whom also I know you could learn, if you wished [and] if your god did not oppose you, to become a very skillful business man."

discovered - I guess you're implying that his is a smaller group - κατέγνων
From whom also I know you could learn - if you are willing, I suppose that, even you (learning how to from them) [followed in sense by πάνυ ἂν δεινὸν χρηματιστὴν γενέσθαι.]
to become - γενέσθαι - {I suppose that you} would be . . .
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 23rd, 2015, 11:07 am

I've finished my first feedbacks for all eighteen sections of chapter two, and let me say, that with almost a hundred to and fro's between us to present - understand and discuss dificulties, these threads stand as testimony to the difficulty of reading Greek, the confusions that arise, and considering your progress they also stand to just how much hard work somebody needs to put in to make even a small amount of headway. What you have done has been very good. Quite clearly, there is no easy way to understanding Greek as you do now, just week in week out slow patient slogging and consistent effort.
Wes Wood in PM wrote:I, myself, have found that hints are far easier to make than to make helpful.
When you're ready, chapter three is waiting just as you've prepared it. Your basic hints are good, but there could be more. I suggest you look at those sections with fresh eyes, to see the syntactic structures, the grammatical inter-relationships. What you have there is great, but just a word-list is not adequate. Words are not glosses they are integral parts of a passage with specific ways of relating to other words. Discover those relationships and Greek becomes cohesive in its own way.

I think for hints to be good, they need four elements; historical or contextual background notes, syntactic structure notes, grammatical relationships of the words involved explained, meanings of the words in their general sense and specifically here. I'm not sure how we'll go on that task, but in my book an attempt is better than not done at all. I just need to be trying.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 24th, 2015, 9:48 pm

Section 16 Feedback
Stephen Hughes wrote:δείξω - we discussed this word at length up the thread a bit. Here, this is show as in point, not show as in prove reasonably.
I believe that this word spawned a great bit of the red in this section. I am glad that I tried to venture away from my (even) more wooden renderings. I don't know that my misunderstanding would have been as apparent otherwise.
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἕκαστα - each of those - for each of the various professions / arts / trades / specialty stores / anything really ...
Mein fehler.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think that if that is the point that is causing you difficulty, the answer is that that word used with that sense is dependent on the particular usage, not the word itself.
To be honest I wasn't sure which of the words it was, but I knew that there was something I was missing. This clears it up for me. Thanks!
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 24th, 2015, 10:02 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:ὅ τι εἴη τοῦτο - [to find out] how this might be - {asking}, "Just what is (the difference) here?" This is is form that the ἐπίσκεψις takes. In that way it is like they are the same, but the case is not the same.
I sometimes despair of ever understanding the different ways that "τι" may be used in phrases like "ὅ τι". I *think* this was more of my problem here than the other. I haven't been able to make sense of these types of phrases despite repeated attempts to. :|
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 24th, 2015, 10:45 pm

Wes Wood wrote:time and again
I wasn't completely sure about this. I feel better about it now.
Stephen Hughes wrote: discovered - I guess you're implying that his is a smaller group - κατέγνων
I hadn't noticed the force of that translation, but now that I have I don't know if I agree with myself or not :| .
Stephen Hughes wrote:From whom also I know you could learn - if you are willing, I suppose that, even you (learning how to from them) [followed in sense by πάνυ ἂν δεινὸν χρηματιστὴν γενέσθαι.]
to become - γενέσθαι - {I suppose that you} would be . . .
I didn't understand that "γενέσθαι" was linked to the earlier phrase. It is perfectly clear in hindsight. :geek:

"if your god did not oppose you" Stupid mistake. Another stú-pid mistake.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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