ἄρτι vs νῦν

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PhillipLebsack
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ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by PhillipLebsack » January 30th, 2018, 9:20 am

What is the primary difference between these two words?
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Jason Hare
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by Jason Hare » January 30th, 2018, 9:36 am

PhillipLebsack wrote:
January 30th, 2018, 9:20 am
What is the primary difference between these two words?
Is there a primary difference? I believe that they're the same thing.
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PhillipLebsack
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by PhillipLebsack » January 31st, 2018, 5:33 am

But why would there be two different words that mean exactly the same thing? Surely there is a slightly different meaning?

Why wouldn't an author just use one of them as opposed to using them in different places in the same book to describe things?
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by Jason Hare » January 31st, 2018, 7:13 am

PhillipLebsack wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 5:33 am
But why would there be two different words that mean exactly the same thing? Surely there is a slightly different meaning?

Why wouldn't an author just use one of them as opposed to using them in different places in the same book to describe things?
I can only say that this happens in Hebrew, where we have the following without distinction:

פֹּה pōh = כָּאן kāʾn "here"
אֵיךְ ʾêḵ = כֵּיצָד kêṣāḏ "how?"
לָמָה lã́mâ = מַדּוּעַ maddûaʿ "why?"
אֵי / אַיֵּה ʾê / ʾayyēh = אֵיפֹה ʾêp̄ōh = הֵיכָן hêḵān = "where?"

These pairs can basically be used interchangeably.

The two terms νῦν and ἄρτι probably came into the language at different points, and different speakers / authors probably favored one over the other.

I don't have any statistics for this, but it's not unreasonable.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 31st, 2018, 9:58 am

I'm not sure that they are exactly interchangeable, but I don't know if they are different, and if they are, I don't know exactly what the difference is. There was a thread on this here:

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... f=12&t=661

It's easy to do a quick search, but analyzing results takes time, and I know that some people have studied this in some depth without coming up with a good answer. One thing I noticed right off: the phrase ἕως ἄρτι is reasonably common, so I wanted to see if we see ἕως νῦν. I can't find that, but I do find ἕως τοῦ νῦν, with the article. Is there a difference that requires the article in this phrase?

This is the kind of question that is hard for even experts, the kind of thing that people write research papers about. And for now, it's probably a question to postpone until you are comfortable reading pages of Greek. They may not be identical, but I'm not sure we know what the difference is, and treating them as identical is good enough for now. Some day you might write that paper and tell us the answer.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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PhillipLebsack
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by PhillipLebsack » January 31st, 2018, 11:14 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 9:58 am
I'm not sure that they are exactly interchangeable, but I don't know if they are different, and if they are, I don't know exactly what the difference is. There was a thread on this here:

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... f=12&t=661

It's easy to do a quick search, but analyzing results takes time, and I know that some people have studied this in some depth without coming up with a good answer. One thing I noticed right off: the phrase ἕως ἄρτι is reasonably common, so I wanted to see if we see ἕως νῦν. I can't find that, but I do find ἕως τοῦ νῦν, with the article. Is there a difference that requires the article in this phrase?
Thanks for linking to the other thread. That and what you said is very enlightening...

I try to search the forum before posting certain questions that I feel have likely came up before, but I didn't see that thread.

Would you say that Abbott's Johannine Grammar is outdated or is it good to read today? If so I think i'll read it, if it's not too outdated in your opinion.
This is the kind of question that is hard for even experts, the kind of thing that people write research papers about. And for now, it's probably a question to postpone until you are comfortable reading pages of Greek. They may not be identical, but I'm not sure we know what the difference is, and treating them as identical is good enough for now. Some day you might write that paper and tell us the answer.
It sounds like a fun research project! But I think i'll take your advice and just view them as the same for now, with Abbott's statement in mind.
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by PhillipLebsack » January 31st, 2018, 11:17 am

Jason Hare wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 7:13 am
PhillipLebsack wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 5:33 am
But why would there be two different words that mean exactly the same thing? Surely there is a slightly different meaning?

Why wouldn't an author just use one of them as opposed to using them in different places in the same book to describe things?
I can only say that this happens in Hebrew, where we have the following without distinction:

פֹּה pōh = כָּאן kāʾn "here"
אֵיךְ ʾêḵ = כֵּיצָד kêṣāḏ "how?"
לָמָה lã́mâ = מַדּוּעַ maddûaʿ "why?"
אֵי / אַיֵּה ʾê / ʾayyēh = אֵיפֹה ʾêp̄ōh = הֵיכָן hêḵān = "where?"

These pairs can basically be used interchangeably.

The two terms νῦν and ἄρτι probably came into the language at different points, and different speakers / authors probably favored one over the other.

I don't have any statistics for this, but it's not unreasonable.
Thank you for your replies Jason.

You do make a good point about favoritism. It may just be for stylistic devices. But I guess i'm not satisfied but I want to know for certain...

By the way, I am also studying Hebrew. Isn't אַיֵּה just the feminine form of אֵי?
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 31st, 2018, 11:21 am

PhillipLebsack wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 11:14 am
Would you say that Abbott's Johannine Grammar is outdated or is it good to read today?
I haven't read it, so I have no opinion. Some old books are quite good.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jason Hare
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by Jason Hare » January 31st, 2018, 2:49 pm

PhillipLebsack wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 11:17 am
By the way, I am also studying Hebrew. Isn't אַיֵּה just the feminine form of אֵי?
Why would an interrogative particle have a feminine form? Perhaps you mean to ask if it's אֵי with a feminine pronoun attached to it? No, that is not what it is. First off, the ending for feminine pronouns will never be -ēh. It will either be -āh, -éha or -ếha. Look at the examples of אַיֵּה here. It means the same thing as אֵיפֹה.

Twice in Ps 42:
אַיֵּה אֱלֹהֶיךָ "Where is your God?"
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: ἄρτι vs νῦν

Post by Shirley Rollinson » January 31st, 2018, 6:59 pm

My gut feeling (and it's only that, I haven't the time to do a proper search right now) is that ἄρτι can carry a sense of "up until now", and νῦν can carry a sense of "now, at this moment"
Shirley R.
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