Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Resources and methods for teaching and learning New Testament Greek.
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joshuapoehls
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Joined: August 3rd, 2018, 3:56 pm

Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by joshuapoehls » August 3rd, 2018, 4:26 pm

I'm at step 0 and have been doing some research into which beginner/introductory grammar to start with. Rodney Decker's Reading Koine Greek, as well as Mounce's works are available in Accordance. They cost quite a bit more there than in print, but I'm wondering if it is worth it.

I realize this is highly subjective - the age old digital vs. physical debate rages. But specifically in terms of a grammar and workbook, has anyone here used Accordance for this or have any thoughts on the pros/cons? I specifically wonder what the workbook experience would be like. I doubt Accordance lets you "type" into the fields in the workbook so I'm assuming you'd have to print out the pages to complete those exercises.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!
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Joshua Poehls

Stirling Bartholomew
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Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 3rd, 2018, 5:43 pm

joshuapoehls wrote:
August 3rd, 2018, 4:26 pm
I'm at step 0 and have been doing some research into which beginner/introductory grammar to start with. Rodney Decker's Reading Koine Greek, as well as Mounce's works are available in Accordance. They cost quite a bit more there than in print, but I'm wondering if it is worth it.

I realize this is highly subjective - the age old digital vs. physical debate rages. But specifically in terms of a grammar and workbook, has anyone here used Accordance for this or have any thoughts on the pros/cons? I specifically wonder what the workbook experience would be like. I doubt Accordance lets you "type" into the fields in the workbook so I'm assuming you'd have to print out the pages to complete those exercises.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!
I have strong views on this. Been with Accordance since before version one-point-zero. I do NOT recommend buying e-versions which cost nothing to distribute. Get the hard copy used. I haven't looked at Decker's book. There are free materials online which are at least as good or better than the seminary textbooks. There is a huge marketing engine behind the seminary textbooks. Your being sold something you don't want. It is almost impossible to unlearn all the mental habits acquired by following the road most traveled in biblical languages. Once you go down that road your more or less beyond being rescued. I say this from four decades of observation.
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Garrett Tyson
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Joined: July 14th, 2018, 6:54 pm

Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by Garrett Tyson » August 4th, 2018, 11:23 am

I have logos bible software, and find parts of it really helpful. It's much faster to search BDAG or Louw/Nida in logos than to use a paper copy. But I think you're better off getting a paper copy for a beginning grammar.

Most people when they learn Greek, learn it twice basically. After a year of Greek, you can make wooden translations, but you have a limited ability to understand how that's helpful. The second year of Greek usually uses an intermediate grammar (Wallace, Mathewson) to show how it's useful. And/or you work through Philippians with a technical commentary (like Peter T. O'Brien's, when I was at Providence Seminary) to understand the Greek.

Decker's beginner grammar basically teaches two years at the same time. It has far more grammar than most first year books, and it's huge. I'm not sure I'd recommend it for someone who is just learning Greek. The charts aren't laid out as well, and it's probably information overload for most people just learning. Plus, Decker is problematic, most people would say, in that he doesn't think Greek indicative verbs express time (only aspect).

I've used Mounce, Decker, and Black's. I prefer Black's, simply because the charts are well-done, and he does a good job keeping things short and simple. Mounce is probably (?) the standard first year book in seminaries. I'd choose either of them over Decker. But there may be something else out there better than either of those, for all I know.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 4th, 2018, 12:29 pm

I agree that a lexicon linked to an e-text is a good thing. But you will pay for Danker's 3rd 400% of what it cost in hard copy when it was first published. And then you don't really own it. You are renting it. To keep it running every year or two you will need to pay the rent. And then when the software product becomes extinct you lose everything. Bible Works closed down recently. The Adobe model is the future, you pay by the month.

Traditional seminary greek teaches you to analyze ancient texts. The goal is learning to write an exegetical paper. There's a growing number of alternatives to this method. Before you get locked in you should explore these alternatives.
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James Spinti
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Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by James Spinti » August 4th, 2018, 3:58 pm

Tine out! I'm no fan of e-lexicons for various reasons, but this is just incorrect. When BDAG was first published, it went for $100, shortly thereafter it rose to $125. You can get BDAG from either Logos or Accordance by itself for around $150. Currently it is $175 on the University of Chicago website! How is that 400% higher???

Another thing, you license it; you don't rent it. You don't have to ever pay again. Sure, you might choose to upgrade it, but it's not required. BibleWorks will continue to work for as long as the operating systems support it—as will Accordance and Logos. And your BDAG will be there.

So if you don't like e-lexicons, fine. I don't either. But don't misrepresent the facts. That just makes people disregard the other reasons you don't like them.

James
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Proofreading and copyediting of ancient Near Eastern and biblical studies monographs

joshuapoehls
Posts: 3
Joined: August 3rd, 2018, 3:56 pm

Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by joshuapoehls » August 4th, 2018, 5:17 pm

Garrett Tyson wrote:
August 4th, 2018, 11:23 am
I have logos bible software, and find parts of it really helpful. It's much faster to search BDAG or Louw/Nida in logos than to use a paper copy. But I think you're better off getting a paper copy for a beginning grammar.

Most people when they learn Greek, learn it twice basically. After a year of Greek, you can make wooden translations, but you have a limited ability to understand how that's helpful. The second year of Greek usually uses an intermediate grammar (Wallace, Mathewson) to show how it's useful. And/or you work through Philippians with a technical commentary (like Peter T. O'Brien's, when I was at Providence Seminary) to understand the Greek.

Decker's beginner grammar basically teaches two years at the same time. It has far more grammar than most first year books, and it's huge. I'm not sure I'd recommend it for someone who is just learning Greek. The charts aren't laid out as well, and it's probably information overload for most people just learning. Plus, Decker is problematic, most people would say, in that he doesn't think Greek indicative verbs express time (only aspect).

I've used Mounce, Decker, and Black's. I prefer Black's, simply because the charts are well-done, and he does a good job keeping things short and simple. Mounce is probably (?) the standard first year book in seminaries. I'd choose either of them over Decker. But there may be something else out there better than either of those, for all I know.
This was helpful, thank you! I've started working through William Ramey's NTGreek In Session as my introduction. It sounds like the wisest course is to complete that (or something similar) and save my money for intermediate level materials which I'll be spending presumably much more time in. NTGreek In Session has been really good so far -- as a total beginner learning completely on my own, I appreciate the many exercises included. Helps with the self-motivation.

Going the self-taught route, figuring out a checklist/game plan to force myself to work through is a big hurdle to getting started.
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Joshua Poehls

Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by Shirley Rollinson » August 6th, 2018, 9:21 pm

joshuapoehls wrote:
August 3rd, 2018, 4:26 pm
I'm at step 0 and have been doing some research into which beginner/introductory grammar to start with. Rodney Decker's Reading Koine Greek, as well as Mounce's works are available in Accordance. They cost quite a bit more there than in print, but I'm wondering if it is worth it.

I realize this is highly subjective - the age old digital vs. physical debate rages. But specifically in terms of a grammar and workbook, has anyone here used Accordance for this or have any thoughts on the pros/cons? I specifically wonder what the workbook experience would be like. I doubt Accordance lets you "type" into the fields in the workbook so I'm assuming you'd have to print out the pages to complete those exercises.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!
You're welcome to try the Online Greek Textbook at http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html
It's free :lol: and I've tried to design it to get students reading with understanding and enjoyment as quickly as possible
Welcome to B-Greek
Shirley Rollinson
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joshuapoehls
Posts: 3
Joined: August 3rd, 2018, 3:56 pm

Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by joshuapoehls » August 6th, 2018, 11:55 pm

Shirley Rollinson wrote:
August 6th, 2018, 9:21 pm
You're welcome to try the Online Greek Textbook at http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/index.html
It's free :lol: and I've tried to design it to get students reading with understanding and enjoyment as quickly as possible
Welcome to B-Greek
Shirley Rollinson
Thanks, Shirley! I think I ran across your textbook earlier in my research but didn't look closely enough. You've put a lot of work into this! I appreciate you linking me to it, thank you again.
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Joshua Poehls

Stirling Bartholomew
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Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 7th, 2018, 9:18 am

James Spinti wrote:
August 4th, 2018, 3:58 pm
Tine out! I'm no fan of e-lexicons for various reasons, but this is just incorrect. When BDAG was first published, it went for $100, shortly thereafter it rose to $125. You can get BDAG from either Logos or Accordance by itself for around $150. Currently it is $175 on the University of Chicago website! How is that 400% higher??

James
Barns & Noble per-publication order price was $37.50 including shipping in Continental USA. For roughly another five dollars I had one shipped to Moscow RU. I couldn't believe that myself. But it happen. I saw a photo of it sitting on a bookshelf In a translation consultants library in Moscow.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 759
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Beginner grammar in Accordance vs. paper

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » August 7th, 2018, 3:22 pm

RE: e-lexicons

Last two days I have been working in a particularly rugged section of John of Damascus: The Heresy of the Ishmaelites.
Καὶ προφάσει τὸ δοκεῖν θεοσεβείας τὸ ἔθνος εἰσποιησάμενος, ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γραφὴν ὑπὸ θεοῦ κατενεχθῆναι ἐπ' αὐτὸν διαθρυλλεῖ. Τινὰ δὲ συντάγματα ἐν τῇ παρ' αὐτοῦ βίβλῳ χαράξας γέλωτος ἄξια τὸ σέβας αὐτοῖς οὕτω παραδίδωσι.
[101] Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.
I opened a separate search+lexical window (Bauer,Lampe) in TLG for each highlighted word. I would flip through these and then go back to the text and read it. Doing this over and over until it became fixed in my mind. Only to discover this morning that it wasn't really fixed and went back to it again. Not sure this is really any less work than writing it down. A my stage in life writing it down is very inconvenient. But e-lexicon look up isn't a miracle cure for sort term memory. If you want to master a text you need to live with it for a while, not just rush through it. Writing it down is best.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

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