αθανασιαν

How can I best learn new vocabulary items? What aids are there and what pitfalls should be avoided? How does a beginner learn to use a lexicon?
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Josh Baker
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αθανασιαν

Post by Josh Baker » January 13th, 2019, 2:50 pm

How strong is the negative prefix alpha to be viewed, or the alpha-privative, I believe it is called. In researching the first resurrection I have reached a conclusion that Paul, at 1 Cor 15:51-54 shows the strength of the term in contrast with αφθαρσιαν. They both could be translated immortality, but the one is of a limited quality in a sense. It used to describe a person who has died and now from that point forward is immortal. While αθανασιαν is used to describe one who is changed from a living , mortal human into an immortal...therefore never dying. So both terms could describe such a person, for a living person who puts on αθανασιαν also puts on αφθαρσιαν... but the more limited form, translated as incorruption can only be applied to someone if they experienced death. The terms have nothing to do with power or glory in either state going forward but only used by Paul separately to show the fullfillment of Hosea 13:14. I believe Jesus words at John 11:25,26 are also a reference to this idea. Is that a reasonable conclusion to reach.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: αθανασιαν

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 13th, 2019, 6:13 pm

First off, I wouldn't put too much stock in a privative, I would look at how the entire word is used, in context, in various settings.

What lexicons are you using? Here's Louw & Nida, which is often helpful for teasing out distinctions among related words.
23.124 θνητός, ή, όν: pertaining to being liable to death (that which will eventually die)—‘mortal.’ μὴ οὖν βασιλευέτω ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐν τῷ θνητῷ ὑμῶν σώματι ‘sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies’ Ro 6:12. The phrase ‘mortal bodies’ may be rendered as ‘bodies which will die.’

23.125 φθαρτός, ή, όν: pertaining to that which is bound to disintegrate and die—‘perishable, mortal.’ ἤλλαξαν τὴν δόξαν τοῦ ἀφθάρτου θεοῦ ἐν ὁμοιώματι εἰκόνος φθαρτοῦ ἀνθρώπου ‘they changed the glory of immortal God for the likeness of a mortal human being’ Ro 1:23.

23.126 ἀθανασία, ας f: the state of not being subject to death (that which will never die)—‘immortality.’ ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν βασιλευόντων καὶ κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων, ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν ‘the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal’ 1 Tm 6:15–16. The clause ‘who alone is immortal’ may be expressed in some languages as simply ‘he is the only one who never dies’ or ‘he is the only one who always exists.’

23.127 ἀφθαρσίαa, ας f: the state of not being subject to decay, leading to death—‘immortal, immortality.’ ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ ‘it will be raised immortal’ 1 Cor 15:42. It is possible to translate this clause as ‘it will be raised and will never again die.’
In rendering ‘immortality’ it may be necessary to employ an entire clause, for example, ‘that people will not die.’ However, in 2 Tm 1:10 ‘life and immortality’ may be best understood as a phrase in which ‘immortality’ is a qualification of ‘life,’ and therefore one may translate ‘revealing immortal life through the gospel’ or ‘revealing by means of the good news the life that does not end.’

23.128 ἄφθαρτος, ον: pertaining to being not subject to decay and death—‘imperishable, immortal.’ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι ‘and the dead will be raised immortal’ 1 Cor 15:52; ἐν τῷ ἀφθάρτῳ τοῦ πραέως καὶ ἡσυχίου πνεύματος ‘in the immortal character of a gentle and quiet spirit’ 1 Pe 3:4.0
Here's the paragraph you refer to:
1 Cor 15 wrote:50 Τοῦτο δέ φημι, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται οὐδὲ ἡ φθορὰ τὴν ἀφθαρσίαν κληρονομεῖ. 51 ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα, 52 ἐν ἀτόμῳ, ἐν ῥιπῇ ὀφθαλμοῦ, ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι· σαλπίσει γὰρ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀλλαγησόμεθα. 53 δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν. 54 ὅταν δὲ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν, τότε γενήσεται ὁ λόγος ὁ γεγραμμένος,
Κατεπόθη ὁ θάνατος εἰς νῖκος.
55 ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος;
ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον;
Talk to me about what you see in the usage of these words in that passage.
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Josh Baker
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Re: αθανασιαν

Post by Josh Baker » January 13th, 2019, 6:50 pm

I'm looking up ἀθάνατος using the liddell/Scott paper back.
-not subject to death, undying, immortal, opp. To θνητός and βροτός ¯ hence ἀθάνατοι, οἱ, the Immortals, of the Gods, also of a body of troops that is kept a a certain number: of things, everlasting.

1 cor 15:50-56

50 Τοῦτο δέ φημι, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται, οὐδὲ ἡ φθορὰ τὴν ἀφθαρσίαν κληρονομεῖ. 51 ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω · πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα, 52 ἐν ἀτόμῳ, ἐν ῥιπῇ ὀφθαλμοῦ, ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι · σαλπίσει γάρ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι, καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀλλαγησόμεθα. 53 δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν. 54 ὅταν δὲ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ ⸃ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν, τότε γενήσεται ὁ λόγος ὁ γεγραμμένος · Κατεπόθη ὁ θάνατος εἰς νῖκος. 55 ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος; ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον; 56 τὸ δὲ κέντρον τοῦ θανάτου ἡ ἁμαρτία, ἡ δὲ δύναμις τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ νόμος

The prophecy in Hosea 13:14 lxx
χειρὸς ᾅδου ῥύσομαι αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐκ θανάτου λυτρώσομαι αὐτούς· ποῦ ἡ δίκη σου, θάνατε; ποῦ τὸ κέντρον σου, ᾅδη; παράκλησις κέκρυπται ἀπὸ ὀφθαλμῶν μου.

John 11:25,26 sbl
25 εἶπεν αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς · Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἀνάστασις καὶ ἡ ζωή · ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ κἂν ἀποθάνῃ ζήσεται, 26 καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα · πιστεύεις τοῦτο;
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Josh Baker
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Re: αθανασιαν

Post by Josh Baker » January 13th, 2019, 7:02 pm

Basically, as a short explanation...the idea that Paul seems to make by using two different terms that mean immortality, which he didn't need to do...he could just say they all put on incorruption, (αφθαρσιαν) which would be true, however he stated them separately for a reason. he is showing how the one group who had died or would die, put on incorruption, a limited description of immortality in comparison to those who do not die, but are mortal at the last trumpets sounding forth, at his parousia. This is done because he is showing the fullfillment of Hosea 13:14. Then this is only fulfilled when both changes occur at the first resurrection. Jesus words show that on the last day, the ones who died will be raised and those who are living at that time and put faith never die at all. The sting Paul mentions is sins power to cause death. So the deliverance from the grave is "the resurrection", and the redemption from the sting of death is "the life".
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Josh Baker
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Re: αθανασιαν

Post by Josh Baker » January 13th, 2019, 7:17 pm

Its interesting to me that αθανασιαν is only used twice, one time in reference to the happy potentate and here in Corinthians. It is not used of specific individuals of his time but of an unknown group that would be mortal or physically alive when the first resurrection occurs. Other times when the other term is in regard specific individuals Paul used the αφθαρσια instead, because he could not state with certainty they would not taste death, they were seeking immortality, but he didn't use the more specific term, but the one that works both ways. Rom 2:6,7

6 ὃς ἀποδώσει ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ · 7 τοῖς μὲν καθ’ ὑπομονὴν ἔργου ἀγαθοῦ δόξαν καὶ τιμὴν καὶ ἀφθαρσίαν ζητοῦσιν ζωὴν αἰώνιον ·
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Josh Baker
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Re: αθανασιαν

Post by Josh Baker » January 13th, 2019, 7:34 pm

One main reason besides understanding the first resurrection is also a theological idea I won't get into but if this word does have the absolute idea of negation of death...that helps identify the potentate for me. Its seems from my limited understanding of greek that Paul shows by his usage here and in 1 Timothy 6, his understanding of this word in its strength of application to an undying existence from a humans birth on and in the case of God, eternal...no death, not just no death after having died as αφθαρσια can mean, but negation of death in a person's entire existence.
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