[Dickey] Ch 1: Sentences

A subforum for working through Eleanor Dickey's An Introduction to the Composition and Analysis of Greek Prose, which can be purchased online at Cambridge press or Amazon.

If you are interested and want to get started, or want to look at a sample before you jump in, the intro on accents and the first chapter is available online as a free PDF here .
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Jason Hare
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[Dickey] Ch 1: Sentences

Post by Jason Hare » August 5th, 2019, 8:08 pm

I hope you don't mind, but translation into Greek is still difficult for me. We did none of it in class way back twenty years ago.

I'm going to translate these sentences in a .docx file and copy them over when I get them done. I don't anticipate it taking me little time; it will probably take me a while!

I received my copy of the book this evening, so I'm excited to invest what time I can tonight in making some headway.

By the way, as far as the Analysis section is concerned, did you see Appendix C on performing sentence analysis? Are you interested in doing something like that at some point?
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Jason A. Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Jason Hare » August 5th, 2019, 8:26 pm

I've gotten started...

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on my way
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Jason A. Hare
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Daniel Semler » August 5th, 2019, 8:48 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
August 5th, 2019, 8:08 pm
I hope you don't mind, but translation into Greek is still difficult for me. We did none of it in class way back twenty years ago.
If it was easy for us we wouldn't be doing it :) I expect it will take me a while too.
Jason Hare wrote:
August 5th, 2019, 8:08 pm
I'm going to translate these sentences in a .docx file and copy them over when I get them done. I don't anticipate it taking me little time; it will probably take me a while!
I'm doing this with paper and pencil ! So if I post answers directly they'll be images or retypes.
Jason Hare wrote:
August 5th, 2019, 8:08 pm
I received my copy of the book this evening, so I'm excited to invest what time I can tonight in making some headway.

By the way, as far as the Analysis section is concerned, did you see Appendix C on performing sentence analysis? Are you interested in doing something like that at some point?
I saw the analysis section but I've not really looked into it. I'll take a look ...

Also, Dickey recommends a specific manner of study in the preface. Read the notes, the grammar references, memorize the vocab and then do the exercises, rather than looking everything up during the attempt to do the exercises. I think that's a good approach and will try to follow it.

Thx
D
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Jason Hare
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Jason Hare » August 5th, 2019, 9:07 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
August 5th, 2019, 8:48 pm
Also, Dickey recommends a specific manner of study in the preface. Read the notes, the grammar references, memorize the vocab and then do the exercises, rather than looking everything up during the attempt to do the exercises. I think that's a good approach and will try to follow it.
Yeah, now that I have a print copy of the book, I'll look more into her suggestions / instructions. I want to see how to use the Analysis section. I might be able to work that into other texts (and languages) if I learn it well enough.
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Jason A. Hare
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Jason Hare » August 5th, 2019, 9:37 pm

OK, chapter 1 turned out to be easier than I had expected. I will take my time with the analysis of the Greek sentences from the Anabasis and try to use the system that Dickey advocated in the appendix. How are you guys doing with things?

1. ὁ ἵππος τὸν δεσπότην φέρει.
2. ὁ μὲν βιβλίον φέρει, ὁ δὲ οὔ.
3. οἱ ποιηταὶ οὐκ ἀεὶ εὖ βουλεύονται.
4. οἱ ποιηταὶ τὴν ἀνδρείαν οὐκ εὐρίσκουσι τῷ θύειν ἐν ἀγορᾷ.
5. οἱ νέοι εὖ μανθάνουσιν.
6. οἱ ἐν ἀγορᾷ ἐθέλουσιν ἵππον θῦσαι.
7. αἱ νῦν μανθάνουσι τῷ βουλεύσασθαι.
8. ὁ ποιητὴς ἐθέλει μετὰ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ βουλεύσασθαι, ὁ δὲ ἐν ἀγορᾷ θύει.
9. οἱ ποιηταὶ τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς ἐπαίδευον.
10. οὐ κακὴ ἡ ἀνδρεία.
11. ὁ μὲν θύει, ὁ δὲ βουλεύεται.
12. οἱ νῦν ἵππους οὐκ ἐσθίουσιν.
13. αἱ ἐν ἀγορᾷ βιβλία φέρουσιν.
14. ὁ νέος ἐθέλει τὸν ἵππον εὑρεῖν, ὁ δὲ ποιητὴν φέρει ἐν ἀγορᾷ.
15. ἀγαθὸν τὸ μαθεῖν.
16. οἱ νέοι τὸ κακὸν μανθάνουσι τῷ παιδεύσασθαι ἐν ἀγορᾷ.
17. αἱ ἀγαθαὶ ἀεὶ παιδεύσασθαι ἐθέλουσιν.
18. οἱ μὲν τἠν ἀνδρείαν εὑρίσκουσι τῷ ἐσθίειν, οἱ δὲ οὔ.
19. ποιηταὶ τοὺς ἀγαθοὺς ἐπαίδευον.
20. οἱ δεσπόται τοὺς δούλους οὐ φέρουσιν.
21. οὐ κακὰ τὰ νῦν.
22. αἱ μὲν αἰσχραί, αἱ δὲ οὔ.
23. οἱ μετὰ τοῦ ποιητοῦ εὖ ἐβουλεύσαντο.
24. ἄγγελοι τὸν νέον ηὗρον.
25. ἐγὼ μὲν ἐθέλω τὸν αἰσχρὸν παιδεῦσαι, ὁ δὲ μαθεῖν οὐκ ἐθέλει.
26. ἵππος τὴν νέαν φέρει.
27. οἱ δοῦλοι τὸ κακὸν ἀεὶ μανθάνουσιν.
28. ὁ δοῦλος εὖ παιδεύει τὸν δεσπότην.
29. οἱ ἵπποι βιβλία οὐκ ἐσθίουσιν.
30. ἡ νέα τἀγαθὰ ἔμαθεν.
31. οἱ μὲν τὴν ἀνδρείαν μανθάνουσι τῷ παιδεύσασθαι, οἱ δὲ τὰ αἰσχρά.
32. ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἐθέλει εὑρεῖν τὸν ἄγγελον, ὁ δὲ μετὰ τοῦ νέου ἐσθίει.
33. τὰς μὲν ηὗρον ἄγγελοι, τὰς δὲ οὔ.
34. οἱ ἵπποι τὴν ἀδρείαν οὐ μανθάνουσιν τῷ βουλεύσασθαι.
35. ἡ ἀγαθὴ ἐθέλει τοὺς ἵππους παιδεῦσαι, οἱ δὲ μαθεῖν οὐκ ἐθέλουσιν.
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Jason A. Hare
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Jason Hare » August 5th, 2019, 9:47 pm

As recommended, I've gone back to the Preface to read Dickey's comments on the use of the book, and I found something that I don't think I can agree with:

A thorough review of declensions, conjugations, vocabulary, principal parts of verbs, etc. is built into the book: each chapter focuses not only on a particular syntactic construction or constructions, but also on a particular set of grammatical forms and vocabulary, and (with a very few unavoidable exceptions) no forms or constructions are used in chapters before the one of which they are the focus.

Yet, even in chapter 1 we have passive infinitives in translation from English to Greek. Look at the following:

16. Young people learn badness by being educated in the marketplace.
17. Good women always wish to be educated.

We certainly have not covered the passive voice, so the use of passive infinitives was definitely not covered. I think this was avoidable in the first chapter. ;)
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Seumas Macdonald
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Seumas Macdonald » August 6th, 2019, 6:30 am

I certainly don't think I would take all of Dickey's advice on board. Or, rather, I don't really agree with her pedagogical position.

Anyway, I've done some of chapter 1 sentences so far:

1. ὁ ἵππος τὸν δεσπότην φέρει.
2. ὁ μὲν φέρει βιβλίον, ὁ δέ οὐ.
3. οἱ ποιηταὶ οὐκ ἀεὶ εὖ βουλεύονται.
4. οἱ ποιηταὶ ἐν ἀγορᾷ θύοντες ἀνδρείαν οὐκ εὑρίσκουσιν.
5. οἱ νέοι εὖ μανθάνουσιν.
6. οἱ ἐν ἀγορᾷ ἐθέλουσι θύειν ἵππον.
7. αἱ νῦν μανθάνουσι βουλόμεναι.
8. ὁ μὲν ποιητὴς βουλέσθαι ἐθέλει μετὰ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ, ὁ δὲ ἐν ἀγορᾷ θύει.
9. τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς παιδεύουσιν οἱ ποιηταί.
10. οὐ κακή ἡ ἀνδρεία.
11. ὁ μὲν θύει, ὁ δὲ βουλεύεται
12. οἱ νῦν οὐκ ἐσθίουσι τοὺς ἵππους.
13. αἱ ἐν ἀγορᾷ βιβλία φέρουσιν.
14. ὁ μὲν νέος ἐθέλει τὸν ἵππον εὕρειν, ὁ δὲ φέρει τὸν ποιητὴν πρὸς τὴν ἀγοράν.
15. καλὸν τὸ μανθάνειν.
16. οἱ νέοι τῷ ἐν ἀγορᾷ παιδεύεσθαι τὸ κακὸν μανθάνουσιν.
a. οἱ νέοι ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ παιδευόμενοι μανθάνουσι τὸ κακόν
17. αἱ ἀγαθαὶ αἰεὶ μανθάνειν ἐθέλουσιν.
18. οἱ μὲν ἀνδρείαν τῷ ἐσθίειν εὑρίσκουσιν, οἱ δέ οὐ.
19. οἱ ποιηταὶ τοὺς καλοὺς ἐπαίδευον.
20. οἱ δεσπόται τοὺς δούλους οὐ φέρουσιν.
21. οὐ κακὰ τὰ νῦν.
22. αἱ μὲν αἰσχραί, αἱ δέ οὐ
23. οἱ μετὰ τοῦ ποιητοῦ εὖ βουλεύονται.
24. ἄγγελοι εὕρον τὸν νέον.
25. ἐγὼ μὲν τὸν αἰσχρὸν παιδεύειν ἐθέλω, ὁ δὲ οὐ ἐθέλει μανθάνειν.
26. ἵππος τὴν νέαν φέρει.
27. οἱ δοῦλοι αἰεὶ τὸ κακὸν μανθάνουσιν.
28. ὁ δοῦλος εὖ παιδεύει τὸν δεσπότα.
29. οἱ ἵπποι οὐκ ἐσθίουσι τὰ βιβλία.
30. ἡ νέα τὰ καλὰ ἔμαθεν.
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EricSowell
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by EricSowell » August 8th, 2019, 1:03 am

So there's one more example of sentences 31-35...

31. Some learn courage by being educated, but others learn shameful things.
οἱ μὲν τὴν ἀνδρείαν τῷ παιδεύεσθαι μανθάνουσιν, οἱ δὲ τὰ αἰσχρά.
32. The good man wishes to find the messenger, but he is eating with the young men.
ὁ ἀγαθὸς τὸν ἄγγελον εὐρίσκειν ἐθέλει, ὁ δὲ μετὰ τῶν νέων ἐσθίει.
33. Messengers found some (women), but not others
τὰς μὲν ἄγγελοι εὗρον, τὰς δὲ οὔ.
34. Horses do not learn courage by deliberating.
οἱ ἵπποι τὴν ἀνδρείαν τῷ βουλεύεσθαι οὐ μανθάνουσιν.
35. The good woman wishes to educate the horses, but they do not wish to learn.
ἡ ἀγαθὴ τοὺς ἵππους παιδεύειν ἐθέλει, οἱ δὲ μανθάνειν οὐ ἐθέλουσιν.

Feedback for Jason

We might be mortal tense enemies. I think everywhere you used an imperfect indicative, I used an aorist indicative, and when you used an aorist infinitive, I used a present :)

25. Would not have a μέν, rule B.4.b
30. Why did you elide and combine τἀγαθὰ?
32. τοῦ νέου should be plural
34. ἀδρείαν should be ἀνδρείαν

Feedback for Seumas

4 & 7. Seumas is a rogue and uses participles where the chapter implies we should use infinitives for these exercises :)
9. Wrong tense
12. Not specific horses, so indefinite, unless you take horses here as the whole class, at which point it would be articular. I lean towards the former given the rules outlined.
14. No μέν in this case, rule B.4.b. Given "in", perhaps ἐν ἀγορᾷ is better πρός. Also, ἀγορᾷ is also not generally articular ( ruleA.5)
17. αἰεὶ should be ἀεί. Maybe passive inf. of παιδεύω would be better?
18. ἀνδρείαν would generally be articular
19. I think anarthrous ποιηταί would be better here because I don't think it's talking about the class of poets, but of some indefinite group of poets.
23. Wrong tense
24. I believe that would be εὗρον, not εὕρον
25. Would not have a μέν, rule B.4.b
27. αἰεὶ should be ἀεί
28. δεσπότα should be δεσπότην
29. Should βιβλία be anarthrous because it isn't particular books?

General question

So what exactly is the rule for when οὐ end a clause/sentence. There are (I think) three examples in the chapter and they are all accented as οὔ. Is that always the right way to do it? It came up several times in these exercises.
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Re: Dickey, Composition: Ch 1, Sentences

Post by Seumas Macdonald » August 8th, 2019, 5:55 am

Hmm, thanks for working through these Eric!

12. Yes, I took it as 'horses as a class'!
17. αἰεί? ah, that's the Homeric influence corrupting me!
29. I took books as a class of objects for the same reason as in 12.

Even though Dickey gives ἐν ἀγορᾷ as a specific example of losing the article, I'm resistant to that suggestion.

As for sentence final οὔ, yes I believe it accents with an acute.
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