Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Daniel Semler
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Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Daniel Semler » November 15th, 2019, 12:49 am

Hi ya,

I've been basically using Roman Period Koine (per Randall Buth's description in Living Koine Greek). I'm aware of the ευ/αυ pronunciation as described in LKG, adopting […/aβ, …/eβ] per Horrocks. It seems it was actually only beginning to come in the period but is adopted in this system for consistency. But that is a digression from the question really. Accepting that it is so in this system then I hit this example in the perf 3rd plural pass of παίδευω which presents me with ευν. This seems to me almost unpronounceable as …/eβ followed by νται. With connecting vowels in between the stem and the ending this is no problem but in the perfect passive we have the two slammed together. So despite this being a textual medium here, I am looking for suggestions on how this would be pronounced in reconstructed Koine.

Thx
D
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MAubrey
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by MAubrey » November 15th, 2019, 1:19 pm

I'm not entirely sure why you find /εβntε/ to not be pronounceable. The voice bilabial fricative isn't obstructing the shift to the aveolar nasal. They're whole separate places of articulation.

Say the fricative normally and then simply close off the air flow through your lips by putting your tongue to the alveolar ridge for the nasal.
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Daniel Semler » November 15th, 2019, 2:37 pm

Hi Mike,

/εβntε/ is fine. In this case though we would gave /εβvtε/ wouldn't we ? Unless I've missed something on the consonant here (entirely possible).

Excuse the v for nu. I am not at my usual computer and don't have my Greek keyboard.

Thx
D
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Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Devenios Doulenios » November 15th, 2019, 3:00 pm

But is the -ντ- pronounced -nd, or d, or otherwise?
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Daniel Semler » November 15th, 2019, 3:21 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
November 15th, 2019, 2:37 pm
Hi Mike,

/εβntε/ is fine. In this case though we would gave /εβvtε/ wouldn't we ? Unless I've missed something on the consonant here (entirely possible).

Excuse the v for nu. I am not at my usual computer and don't have my Greek keyboard.

Thx
D
Apologies - the above is rubbish. I think /εβntε/ is IPA right Mike ? I misread it in haste, hilariously enough, as Greek. My response was neither :)

I think I may be following you now. The problem I have is that there appears to be the whisper of a vowel between the ευ and the ν, between the /εβ/ and the /ntε/. Perhaps somewhat like the word "event", if you squash the middle e as close to non-existence as you can -> evente.

If that is anywhere close I may be following you. Is it ?

Thx
D
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Daniel Semler » November 15th, 2019, 3:29 pm

Devenios Doulenios wrote:
November 15th, 2019, 3:00 pm
But is the -ντ- pronounced -nd, or d, or otherwise?
I was puzzling over that too while I went to the library just now. I was trying to figure out where you break between the syllables. I was trying to figure out whether the first syllable ended at the nu or the tau. I think in this case you have to end the first syllable at the nu and then start the next on the tau. So you have both the n and d sounds but in separate syllables.

Of course, I could also be wrong but that's what I've got so far.

Thx
D
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Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Devenios Doulenios » November 15th, 2019, 4:12 pm

So, are we positing a schwa or "uh" sound between the upsilon and the nu? Not an exact parallel, but I've heard a modern Greek speaker do this between π and ν in πνευμα. Ιt's in an audio of the Koine GNT produced by an Orthodox monk for the Greek Bible Society.
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Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

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"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'

Daniel Semler
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Daniel Semler » November 15th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Devenios Doulenios wrote:
November 15th, 2019, 4:12 pm
So, are we positing a schwa or "uh" sound between the upsilon and the nu? Not an exact parallel, but I've heard a modern Greek speaker do this between π and ν in πνευμα. Ιt's in an audio of the Koine GNT produced by an Orthodox monk for the Greek Bible Society.
I'm saying that I cannot pronounce it smoothly (perhaps at all) without some hint of an intervening vowel sound there. I may be doing it wrong. I will entertain the kids this evening with further practice goes :) But Mike's comment above seems to suggest that there is no issue here and that it should be doable. That leaves a few options:

1. I'm pronouncing it wrong - and just need to practice more
2. there is such a sound but nobody really considers it noteworthy for some reason
3. it's something to do with the way I make the sounds and I'm physiologically incapable of uttering the sound the way Mike suggests
4. .....

So can you pronounce without some kind of vowel sound between the upsilon and nu ?

thx
D
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Paul-Nitz
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by Paul-Nitz » November 16th, 2019, 11:27 am

πεπαίδευνται is a little tricky, but we do utter this combination in English:
seventy ˈsɛvnti
A bit off the point, but that final "t" in "seventy" is simply an unaspirated "t."
That's the way I take ντ combinations in Restored Koine,
I prefer to pronounce them with an unaspirated "t" rather than with an English "d."
It's easier to say and, to my ears, it sounds better.
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

RandallButh
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Re: Roman Period Koine pronunciation of ευ in πεπαίδευνται

Post by RandallButh » November 16th, 2019, 2:08 pm

MAubrey wrote:
November 15th, 2019, 1:19 pm
I'm not entirely sure why you find /εβntε/ to not be pronounceable. The voice bilabial fricative isn't obstructing the shift to the aveolar nasal. They're whole separate places of articulation.

Say the fricative normally and then simply close off the air flow through your lips by putting your tongue to the alveolar ridge for the nasal.
ναί.
l athough the 'n' would almost, but not quite, drop out of auditory recognition. If 'n' is part of εβn/ewn, then the 'n' is a light off-glide before the final syllable. This was its historical position. If 'n' is part of the final syllable then 'n' in 'nt' becomes either a lightly pronounced on-glide or a practical 'd'. If the 'n' were to be given syllabic status then the word would have changed to pepedéβ-n-tε, something that should be avoided. Stay with pεpέdεβn-tε where the unaspirated 't' probably sounds like a 'd' to English speakers or is even pronounced like a 'd'. Either unaspirated-t or d is good. ]
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