Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Stirling Bartholomew
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Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 5th, 2020, 6:59 pm

Is this a reference to nephilim?

ὡς τοὺς γίγαντας, πάλιν θεομαχοῦντας αὐτοὺς ὁρῶ.

see in them the giants again fighting against God.


Gen. 6:4 הנפלים היו בארץ the nephilim were in the land

οἱ δὲ γίγαντες ἦσαν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς


Oration III Against the Arians
§ 41.5 Ἀληθινὸς γὰρ Θεὸς ἦν ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ, καὶ ἀληθὴς σὰρξ ἦν ἐν τῷ Λόγῳ. Διὰ τοῦτο ἐκ μὲν τῶν ἔργων ἐγνώριζεν ἑαυτὸν Υἱόν τε τοῦ Θεοῦ, καὶ τὸν ἑαυτοῦ Πατέρα· ἐκ δὲ τῶν τῆς σαρκὸς παθῶν ἐδείκνυεν ὅτι ἀληθὲς ἐφόρει σῶμα, καὶ ἴδιον ἢν αὐτοῦ τοῦτο.

§ 41.5 For He was Very God in the flesh, and He was true flesh in the Word. Therefore from His works He revealed both Himself as Son of God, and His own Father, and from the affections of the flesh He showed that He bore a true body, and that it was His own. — J.H. Newman

§ 42.1 Τούτων οὕτως ὄντων, φέρε καὶ τὸ, ‘Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας καὶ τῆς ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι, οὐδὲ ὁ Υἱὸς,ʼ διερευνήσωμεν. Τοῦτο μὲν γὰρ μεγάλως μάλιστα ἀγνοήσαντες, καὶ ἐν τούτῳ σκοτοδινιῶντες, μεγάλην νομίζουσινἔχειν ἐν τούτῳ πρόφασιν τῆς αἱρέσεως αὐτῶν. Ἐγὼ δὲ καὶ τοῦτο προφασιζομένους αὐτοὺς, καὶ ἐν τούτῳ παρασκευαζομένους τοὺς αἱρετικοὺς, ὡς τοὺς γίγαντας, πάλιν θεομαχοῦντας αὐτοὺς ὁρῶ.

§ 42.1 These things being so, come let us now examine into 'But of that day and that hour knows no man, neither the Angels of God, nor the Son ;' for being in great ignorance as regards these words, and being stupefied about them, they think they have in them an important argument for their heresy. But I, when the heretics allege it and prepare themselves with it, see in them the giants again fighting against God. — J.H. Newman
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Ken M. Penner » February 6th, 2020, 2:30 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
February 5th, 2020, 6:59 pm
Is this a reference to nephilim?

ὡς τοὺς γίγαντας, πάλιν θεομαχοῦντας αὐτοὺς ὁρῶ.

see in them the giants again fighting against God.
I see a closer connection with Origen:
Contra Celsum 6.42 wrote: In the next place, desiring to point out the enigmas, our mistakes regarding which lead to the introduction of our views concerning Satan, he continues: The ancients allude obscurely to a certain war among the gods, Heraclitus speaking thus of it: 'If one must say that there is a general war and discord, and that all things are done and administered in strife.' Pherecydes, again, who is much older than Heraclitus, relates a myth of one army drawn up in hostile array against another, and names Kronos as the leader of the one, and Ophioneus of the other, and recounts their challenges and struggles, and mentions that agreements were entered into between them, to the end that whichever party should fall into the ocean should be held as vanquished, while those who had expelled and conquered them should have possession of heaven. The mysteries relating to the Titans and Giants also had some such (symbolic) meaning (Τούτου δὲ βουλήματός φησιν ἔχεσθαι καὶ τὰ περὶ τοὺς Τιτᾶνας καὶ Γίγαντας μυστήρια, θεομαχεῖν ἀπαγγελλομένους), as well as the Egyptian mysteries of Typhon, and Horus, and Osiris. After having made such statements, and not having got over the difficulty as to the way in which these accounts contain a higher view of things, while our accounts are erroneous copies of them, he continues his abuse of us, remarking that these are not like the stories which are related of a devil, or demon, or, as he remarks with more truth, of a man who is an impostor, who wishes to establish an opposite doctrine. And in the same way he understands Homer, as if he referred obscurely to matters similar to those mentioned by Heraclitus, and Pherecydes, and the originators of the mysteries about the Titans and Giants (καὶ τοῖς τὰ περὶ Τιτᾶνας καὶ Γίγαντας μυστήρια εἰσάγουσιν), in those words which Hephæstus addresses to Hera as follows:
Contra Celsum 8.11 wrote:He adds, And indeed he who, when speaking of God, asserts that there is only one who may be called Lord, speaks impiously, for he divides the kingdom of God, and raises a sedition therein, implying that there are separate factions in the divine kingdom, and that there exists one who is His enemy. He might speak after this fashion, if he could prove by conclusive arguments that those who are worshipped as gods by the heathens are truly gods, and not merely evil spirits, which are supposed to haunt statues and temples and altars. But we desire not only to understand the nature of that divine kingdom of which we are continually speaking and writing, but also ourselves to be of those who are under the rule of God alone, so that the kingdom of God may be ours. Celsus, however, who teaches us to worship many gods, ought in consistency not to speak of the kingdom of God, but of the kingdom of the gods. There are therefore no factions in the kingdom of God, nor is there any god who is an adversary to Him, although there are some who, like the Giants and Titans, in their wickedness wish to contend with God in company with Celsus (οἷον γίγαντές τινες, ἢ Τιτᾶνες, διὰ τὴν ἰδίαν φαυλότητα θεομαχεῖν θέλωσι μετὰ Κέλσου), and those who declare war against Him who has by innumerable proofs established the claims of Jesus, and against Him who, as the Word, did, for the salvation of our race, show Himself before all the world in such a form as each was able to receive Him.
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 6th, 2020, 7:23 pm

Ken M. Penner wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 2:30 pm

I see a closer connection with Origen:
like the Giants and Titans, in their wickedness wish to contend with God in company with Celsus (οἷον γίγαντές τινες, ἢ Τιτᾶνες, διὰ τὴν ἰδίαν φαυλότητα θεομαχεῖν θέλωσι μετὰ Κέλσου), and those who declare war against Him who has by innumerable proofs established the claims of Jesus, and against Him who, as the Word, did, for the salvation of our race, show Himself before all the world in such a form as each was able to receive Him.
Yes, this looks good. We can assume Athanasius would be familiar with Origen and having access to a good library in Alexandria. Not sure he was in Alexandria a the time he wrote this. Someone suggested he was in exile when the Orations were written.

Thank you.

another example from Oration II
§ 32.1 Ἀπὸ δὴ τούτων ἔστι συνορᾷν, ὡς οὐ πρὸς ἡμᾶς ἔχουσιν τὴν μάχην οἱ Ἀρειανοὶ περὶ τῆς αἱρέσεως, ἀλλὰ σχηματίζονται μὲν πρὸς ἡμᾶς, πρὸς αὐτὴν δὲ τὴν θεότητα μάχονται. Εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν ἦν ἡ φωνὴ ἡ λέγουσα, ‘Οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ Υἱός μου,ʼ μικρὰ ἧν αὐτοῖς ἡ παῤ ἡμῶν μέμψις· εἰ δὲ τοῦ Πατρός ἐστιν ἡ φωνὴ, καὶ οἱ μὲν μαθηταὶ ἤκουσαν, αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Υἱὸς περὶ ἑαυτοῦ λέγει, ‘Πρὸ δὲ πάντων βουνῶν γεννᾷ με·’ πῶς οὐ κατὰ τοὺς μυθευομένους γίγαντας καὶ αὐτοὶ νῦν θεομαχοῦσι, ‘τὴν γλῶττανʼ ἔχοντες, ὡς εἶπεν ὁ ψάλλων, ‘μάχαιραν ὀξεῖαν εἰς ἀσέβειαν; Οὔτε γὰρ τὴν φωνὴν τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐφοβήθησαν, οὔτε τοῦ Σωτῆρος ᾐδέσθησαν τὰ ῥήματα· ἀλλʼ οὐδὲ τοῖς ἁγίοις ἐπείσθησαν, τοῦ μὲν γράφοντος, ‘ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ·’ καὶ, ‘Χριστὸς Θεοῦ δύναμις, καὶ Θεοῦ σοφία·’
§ 32.1 It is plain from this that the Arians are not fighting with us about their heresy; but while they pretend us, their real fight is against the Godhead Itself. For if the voice were ours which says, 'This it My Son ,' small were our complaint of them; but if it is the Father's voice, and the disciples heard it, and the Son too says of Himself, 'Before all the mountains He begot me ,' are they not fighting against God, as the giants in story, having their tongue, as the Psalmist says, a sharp sword for irreligion? For they neither feared the voice of the Father, nor reverenced the Saviour's words, nor trusted the Saints, one of whom writes, 'Who being the Brightness of His glory and the Expression of His subsistence,' and 'Christ the power of God and the Wisdom of God ;'
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 19th, 2020, 4:45 pm

Oration I — St Athanasius Against the Arians

§ 1.1 ἉΙ μὲν αἱρέσεις, ὅσαι τῆς ἀληθείας ἀπέστησαν, ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι, καὶ τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε.

The syntax of the bold part isn't perfectly clear. Not sure how τυγχάνουσι relates to the rest. I have visited LSJ and BDAG multiple times and then left it behind to do other things. Come back weeks later only to find I still don't clearly understand how the constituents between the commas work together.


Translation
§ 1.1 Of all other heresies which have departed from the truth it is acknowledged that they have but devised a madness, and their irreligiousness has long since become notorious to all men.

Translated by John Henry Newman and Archibald Robertson.
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Peng Huiguo » February 19th, 2020, 6:53 pm

ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι mirrors τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε, so

ἐπινοήσασαι ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι
ἀσέβεια πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε

I think something like a "to themselves" (the object of τυγχάνουσι) is missing right after "acknowledged" (prob not the best choice of word here also) in Newman & Robertson's translation. This one is a bit hard to translate, though not hard to understand in reading.
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 20th, 2020, 12:48 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
February 19th, 2020, 4:45 pm
Oration I — St Athanasius Against the Arians

§ 1.1 ἉΙ μὲν αἱρέσεις, ὅσαι τῆς ἀληθείας ἀπέστησαν, ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι, καὶ τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε.

The syntax of the bold part isn't perfectly clear. Not sure how τυγχάνουσι relates to the rest. I have visited LSJ and BDAG multiple times and then left it behind to do other things. Come back weeks later only to find I still don't clearly understand how the constituents between the commas work together.


Translation
§ 1.1 Of all other heresies which have departed from the truth it is acknowledged that they have but devised a madness, and their irreligiousness has long since become notorious to all men.

Translated by John Henry Newman and Archibald Robertson.
Knowing how τυγχάνω + participle works might help:
II. joined with the part. of another Verb to express a coincidence, τύχησε γὰρ ἐρχομένη νηῦς a ship happened to be, i.e. was just then, starting, Od.14.334; ξεῖνος ἐὼν ἐτύχησε παρʼ ἱπποδάμοισι Γερηνοῖς Hes.Fr.15.3, cf. Semon.7.19, Pi.N.1.49; πρυτανεία ἢ ἂν τυγχάνῃ πρυτανεύουσα IG1.63.27, cf. 52; τὰ νοέων τυγχάνω what I happen to have, i.e. have at this moment, in my mind, Hdt.1.88, cf. 8.65, 68.α ́; ἐτετεύχεε ἐπισπόμενος Id.3.14; ὃ τυγχάνω μαθών which I have just learnt, S.Tr.370; παρὼν ἐτύγχανον I was by just then, Id.Aj.748; τυγχάνει καθεύδων he is sleeping just now, Ar.V.336 (troch.); ἔτυχον στρατευόμενοι they were just then engaged in an expedition., Th.1.104; ἔτυχε κατὰ τοῦτο καιροῦ ἐλθών he came just at this point of time, Id.7.2; ἥτις δέ τοι μάλιστα σωφρονεῖν δοκεῖ, αὕτη μέγιστα τυγχάνει λωβωμένη she is just the one who .., Semon.7.109; but freq. τυγχάνω cannot be translated at all, esp. in phrase τυγχάνω ὤν, which is simply = εἰμί, S.Aj.88, Ar.Pl.35, Pl.Prt.313c, etc.
Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1833). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

I would render something like "Heresies, which resist the truth, happen to contrive (or simply "contrive") madness which are obvious in them(selves)..."
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 20th, 2020, 2:09 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
February 20th, 2020, 12:48 pm
[

Knowing how τυγχάνω + participle works might help:


I would render something like "Heresies, which resist the truth, happen to contrive (or simply "contrive") madness which are obvious in them(selves)..."
I read that paragraph in LSJ several times but BDAG sent me down the wrong path with participle ἐπινοήσασαι
Lemma: ἐπινοέω
to take notice of, notice someth. undesirable
LSJ
ἐπινο-έω, think on or of, contrive, τι Hdt.1.48, Hp.Art.42,77, Ar. Eq.884, Pl.Lg.677b; φάρμακον τῇ ψύξει Ael.NA9.7, etc.: c. inf., πῶς ἐπενόησας ἁρπάσαι; Ar.Eq.1202, cf. Nu.1039: abs., form plans, opp. δρᾶν, Antipho 3.2.7; opp. ἐπεξελθεῖν, Th.1.70; opp. ἐξεργάσασθαι, Ph.Bel.58.43. 2. have in one's mind, intend, purpose, ὀλίγον οὐδέν Th.2.8, cf. X.An.2.5.4, etc.: c. pres. inf., Hdt.1.27, Ar.Th.338, X. An.6.4.9, etc.: fut., Hdt.3.134: aor., Id.2.152, 5.24,65, E.Rh.195 (lyr., nowhere else in Trag.), Pl.Ti.37c:—Pass., Philostr.Her.10.6. 3. note, observe, Phld.Po.5.11; perceive, Plu.Per.6. 4. conceive, Epicur.Ep.1p.23U.:—Pass., ib.p.6U., S.E.M.8.381. II. invent, contrive, κατασκευήν Gal.UP12.6, etc.:—Med., aor. -ησάμην Luc. Astr.17:—Pass., ὀνόματα ὑπὸ τῶν φιλοσόφων ἐπινοηθέντα Id.Deor.Conc.13, etc.; but aor. Pass. ἐπινοηθῆναι in act. sense in Hdt.3.122, 6.115, Luc.Am.16,31.

§ 1.1 ἉΙ μὲν αἱρέσεις, ὅσαι τῆς ἀληθείας ἀπέστησαν, ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι, καὶ τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε.

I have in the past had a somewhat phobic reaction to τυγχάνω. Every time I run into it I need to review the options.
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 20th, 2020, 2:26 pm

Peng Huiguo wrote:
February 19th, 2020, 6:53 pm
ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι mirrors τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε, so

ἐπινοήσασαι ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι
ἀσέβεια πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε

I think something like a "to themselves" (the object of τυγχάνουσι) is missing right after "acknowledged" (prob not the best choice of word here also) in Newman & Robertson's translation. This one is a bit hard to translate, though not hard to understand in reading.
Yes, I agree. I was ignoring Newman & Robertson and trying to sort it out without them, but the semantics and the syntax just didn't seem to work. Joining τυγχάνουσι with ἐπινοήσασαι seemed strange and the other constituents seemed like they were just thrown together. Not the first time I have had that feeling with Athanasius.
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 20th, 2020, 2:35 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
February 20th, 2020, 2:09 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
February 20th, 2020, 12:48 pm
[

Knowing how τυγχάνω + participle works might help:


I would render something like "Heresies, which resist the truth, happen to contrive (or simply "contrive") madness which are obvious in them(selves)..."
I read that paragraph in LSJ several times but BDAG sent me down the wrong path with participle ἐπινοήσασαι
Lemma: ἐπινοέω
to take notice of, notice someth. undesirable
LSJ
ἐπινο-έω, think on or of, contrive, τι Hdt.1.48, Hp.Art.42,77, Ar. Eq.884, Pl.Lg.677b; φάρμακον τῇ ψύξει Ael.NA9.7, etc.: c. inf., πῶς ἐπενόησας ἁρπάσαι; Ar.Eq.1202, cf. Nu.1039: abs., form plans, opp. δρᾶν, Antipho 3.2.7; opp. ἐπεξελθεῖν, Th.1.70; opp. ἐξεργάσασθαι, Ph.Bel.58.43. 2. have in one's mind, intend, purpose, ὀλίγον οὐδέν Th.2.8, cf. X.An.2.5.4, etc.: c. pres. inf., Hdt.1.27, Ar.Th.338, X. An.6.4.9, etc.: fut., Hdt.3.134: aor., Id.2.152, 5.24,65, E.Rh.195 (lyr., nowhere else in Trag.), Pl.Ti.37c:—Pass., Philostr.Her.10.6. 3. note, observe, Phld.Po.5.11; perceive, Plu.Per.6. 4. conceive, Epicur.Ep.1p.23U.:—Pass., ib.p.6U., S.E.M.8.381. II. invent, contrive, κατασκευήν Gal.UP12.6, etc.:—Med., aor. -ησάμην Luc. Astr.17:—Pass., ὀνόματα ὑπὸ τῶν φιλοσόφων ἐπινοηθέντα Id.Deor.Conc.13, etc.; but aor. Pass. ἐπινοηθῆναι in act. sense in Hdt.3.122, 6.115, Luc.Am.16,31.

§ 1.1 ἉΙ μὲν αἱρέσεις, ὅσαι τῆς ἀληθείας ἀπέστησαν, ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι, καὶ τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε.

I have in the past had a somewhat phobic reaction to τυγχάνω. Every time I run into it I need to review the options.
LSJ is going to be a better resource for nearly every Greek author outside of the NT timeframe. It's like anything else, what makes the best sense from context?
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Re: Orations of St Athanasius Against the Arians

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 20th, 2020, 2:36 pm

Peng Huiguo wrote:
February 19th, 2020, 6:53 pm
ἐπινοήσασαι μανίαν ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι mirrors τούτων ἡ ἀσέβεια πάλαι πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε, so

ἐπινοήσασαι ἑαυταῖς φανεραὶ τυγχάνουσι
ἀσέβεια πᾶσιν ἔκδηλος γέγονε

I think something like a "to themselves" (the object of τυγχάνουσι) is missing right after "acknowledged" (prob not the best choice of word here also) in Newman & Robertson's translation. This one is a bit hard to translate, though not hard to understand in reading.
I didn't look at N&R. The Greek is perfectly comprehensible, and nothing is missing.
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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