Ισαακ or Ισακ

Other Greek writings of the New Testament era, including papyri and inscriptions
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Jean Putmans
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Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jean Putmans » June 6th, 2020, 6:40 am

Ισαακ or Ισακ

The hebrew pronunciation was something like "yitschâk" (I don't know any hebrew, so I have to trust the Internet for that).

As Greek Variants I see Ισαακ (in most Manuscripts), Ισακ (in Cod. Sin., Cod. Bezae, P13, P46). In Editions: Ισαακ.

Septuagint as far as I could check: only Ισαακ.

In the Old-Latin I find : Isaac, Isac, Isach and Isahac.
The Gothic Bible has Isak.

Following the Hebrew Pronunciation: What would have been the best fitting Greek way to write the name?

Regards

Jean Putmans
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Jean Putmans
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Jason Hare
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jason Hare » June 8th, 2020, 4:52 am

Jean Putmans wrote:
June 6th, 2020, 6:40 am
Ισαακ or Ισακ

The hebrew pronunciation was something like "yitschâk" (I don't know any hebrew, so I have to trust the Internet for that).

As Greek Variants I see Ισαακ (in most Manuscripts), Ισακ (in Cod. Sin., Cod. Bezae, P13, P46). In Editions: Ισαακ.

Septuagint as far as I could check: only Ισαακ.

In the Old-Latin I find : Isaac, Isac, Isach and Isahac.
The Gothic Bible has Isak.

Following the Hebrew Pronunciation: What would have been the best fitting Greek way to write the name?

Regards

Jean Putmans
If we're going to make a game out of it, then I would do this:

יִ = Ι
צ = τσ
ח = χ
ָ = α
ק = κ

יִצְחַק = Ἰτσχάκ

As it is, sigma was used to transliterate most of the sibilants (even if it was ts [ṣ] or sh [š]), both ה and ח were often ignored, and the guttural coloring of the vowel might easy be conveyed as a doubled vowel. Ἰσαάκ isn't really an unreasonable transliteration. I would have gone with Ἰσχάκ, but I can understand why they went with the other.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 8th, 2020, 1:41 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 4:52 am
If we're going to make a game out of it, then I would do this:

יִ = Ι
צ = τσ
ח = χ
ָ = α
ק = κ

יִצְחַק = Ἰτσχάκ

As it is, sigma was used to transliterate most of the sibilants (even if it was ts [ṣ] or sh [š]), both ה and ח were often ignored, and the guttural coloring of the vowel might easy be conveyed as a doubled vowel. Ἰσαάκ isn't really an unreasonable transliteration. I would have gone with Ἰσχάκ, but I can understand why they went with the other.
That transliteration makes sense, but I wonder how hard it would be for Greeks to pronounce it. The transliterations we see in manuscripts feel like much more natural Greek to me.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jean Putmans
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jean Putmans » June 9th, 2020, 12:48 am

Thanks for the Explanation.

That double vowel (as used in the mas of Greek Mss.) would have resulted in the name (like in some Itala Mss.) Isahak (just like Abraham).

Regards,

Jean
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Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 9th, 2020, 9:17 am

Jean Putmans wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 12:48 am
That double vowel (as used in the mas of Greek Mss.) would have resulted in the name (like in some Itala Mss.) Isahak (just like Abraham).
Cool! That makes sense. I'm not sure I would describe it as a double vowel, but I can see how that transliteration would come to be. I'm a newbie at Hebrew, but I think the syllabification is:

יִצְ-חַק
Ἰτσ-χάκ

Are there any Greek manuscripts that use transliterations that come close to that?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jean Putmans
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jean Putmans » June 9th, 2020, 9:38 am

Yes there are some Greek Mss. that have Ισακ: Cod. Sinaiticus, Cod. Bezae, (Papyri:) P13, P46.

In the Itala (=the Old-Latin versions): Isaac, Isac, Isach and ... Isahac.

The Gothic has all -αα- transliterated -aha-, but it has Isak.

Regards

Jean
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Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com

Jean Putmans
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Joined: August 3rd, 2018, 1:01 am
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jean Putmans » June 9th, 2020, 9:43 am

Dear Jonathan,

if You were looking for Greek Variants with something like Ισχαχ: either there are none, or at least till now I didn't find them!

The Latin Isach comes closest I think.

Regards

Jean
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Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ισαακ or Ισακ

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 9th, 2020, 10:41 am

Jean Putmans wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 9:38 am
Yes there are some Greek Mss. that have Ισακ: Cod. Sinaiticus, Cod. Bezae, (Papyri:) P13, P46.
Sure, but that doesn't involve the problematic χ. It's not what I meant by "close".
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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