Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

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sethknorr
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Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

Post by sethknorr » June 8th, 2020, 10:33 pm

Does anyone know of any examples outside the New Testament in Koine where a non-genitive proper name is followed by a genitive proper name (articular or anarthrous), without modifiers; with the translation being the parent is the non-genitive and the child is genitive. Or examples where they are naming brothers or sisters, also with no modifiers. Ie, Μαρία ἡ Ἰωσῆτος would be translated Mary the mother of James.

For instance in the NT, there is
Ἰούδαν Ἰακώβου (Luke 6:16) and Ἰούδας Ἰακώβου (Acts 1:13) where some claim this should be Judas the brother of James instead son of James.

Or for parent/children:
Μαρία ἡ Ἰωσῆτος “Mary of Joseph” (Mark 15:47); and Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου “Mary of James” (Mark 16:1); Μαρία ἡ Ἰακώβου “Mary of James” (Luke 24:10).

When I say with no modifiers I mean phrases such as, Μαρία ἡ Ἰακώβου μήτηρ. Obviously, there would be no debate on that translation because μήτηρ makes it explicit.
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Seth Knorr
I always wondered what Greeks think when they see that commercial "λέγω μου Ἐγὼ"

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 9th, 2020, 12:27 pm

We do this in colloquial English sometimes.

sp1: Kathy came by.
sp2: Which Kathy?
sp1: Jonathan's Kathy.

She might be Jonathan's mother or his wife or his sister or his friend. This only works for people who know both Jonathan and Kathy and know their relationship. In a translation for an audience 2,000 years later, it's helpful to be more specific if we can.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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sethknorr
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Re: Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

Post by sethknorr » June 9th, 2020, 5:52 pm

If I heard Jonathan's Kathy, I would think wife or daughter. But probably wife. I wouldn’t think mother. Even if I knew Jonathan had a mother named Kathy I would still wonder if he got a new girl friend or had a baby.

We don’t say Kathy of Johnathan, but if I heard that I still would not ever think Kathy was Johnathan’s mother.

Of course the way we think could be different than how they thought.
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Seth Knorr
I always wondered what Greeks think when they see that commercial "λέγω μου Ἐγὼ"

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 9th, 2020, 6:09 pm

sethknorr wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:52 pm
If I heard Jonathan's Kathy, I would think wife or daughter. But probably wife. I wouldn’t think mother. Even if I knew Jonathan had a mother named Kathy I would still wonder if he got a new girl friend or had a baby.
Well, I used to work in a daycare center. Most of the adults who came to pick up children had names like "Jim's mom" or "Brenda's dad". I'm not certain, but I think this would have been a sensible informal conversation:

s1: Are all the parents here?
s2: We're still waiting for Kathy.
s1: Which Kathy?
s2: Jonathan's Kathy.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

sethknorr
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Re: Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

Post by sethknorr » June 9th, 2020, 7:54 pm

I would agree, in that specific context, but of course the topic is kids and their parents, so yes that would be the go to.

In the gospels they are just naming names with zero context, so it’s not really apples to apples.

I ask for examples because I have seen a lot of these constructions in secular writings and as far as I can tell they are always son of or daughter of. I realize that doesn’t mean it can’t mean mother of.

Also in the NT Luke and Mark both used the modifier, so it shows they were trying to be specific at least in those instances:

Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου καὶ Ἰωσὴφ μήτηρ (Matthew 27:56),
Μαρία ἡ Ἰακώβου τοῦ μικροῦ καὶ Ἰωσῆτος μήτηρ (Mark 15:40)
Μαριὰμ τῇ μητρὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ (Acts 1:14)
τῆς Μαρίας τῆς μητρὸς Ἰωάννου (Acts 12:12)
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Seth Knorr
I always wondered what Greeks think when they see that commercial "λέγω μου Ἐγὼ"

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Translation of non-genitive / genitive Proper names

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 9th, 2020, 10:00 pm

sethknorr wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 7:54 pm
I would agree, in that specific context, but of course the topic is kids and their parents, so yes that would be the go to.

In the gospels they are just naming names with zero context, so it’s not really apples to apples.

I ask for examples because I have seen a lot of these constructions in secular writings and as far as I can tell they are always son of or daughter of. I realize that doesn’t mean it can’t mean mother of.
Whatever it meant, it was clear in that particular context, just not to us. Like the daycare example. Sometimes we know, sometimes we aren't sure, sometimes we don't know.
sethknorr wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 7:54 pm
lso in the NT Luke and Mark both used the modifier, so it shows they were trying to be specific at least in those instances:

Μαρία ἡ τοῦ Ἰακώβου καὶ Ἰωσὴφ μήτηρ (Matthew 27:56),
Μαρία ἡ Ἰακώβου τοῦ μικροῦ καὶ Ἰωσῆτος μήτηρ (Mark 15:40)
Μαριὰμ τῇ μητρὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ (Acts 1:14)
τῆς Μαρίας τῆς μητρὸς Ἰωάννου (Acts 12:12)

And that may mean they had to be specific because it would not have been clear to their audience otherwise. It would be interesting to check variants here. (I have not).
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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