Pros
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 4 08:15:45 EDT 1999
I want to make just a couple clarifications regarding what I meant in the
statements cited and commented on by Donald Shaffer.
At 5:30 AM -0400 6/4/99, Donald L. Shaffer wrote:
>On 06/03/99, ""Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>" wrote:
>>
>> The rest of this is theological speculation, which really doesn't belong on
>> this list
>
>This is a Greek list, and perhaps I am one who doesn't belong here. I
>don't know much about Greek, but using Strong numbers compare the context
>of various verses to try to get the meaning. I just want to say before
>leaving that translators at one time must have used context to determine
>what the words were to mean in the first place. Even babies do the same as
>they learn to talk. I would like to learn Greek to help in understanding
>what the Bible is really saying. But I think I would always use context
>just as much. Having said that, I agree that one shouldn't break accepted
>rules of translating just because of his theology.
(1) Although I did get the impression that your approach to the meaning of
PROS was driven initially by the understanding of John 1:1-2. And, although
I thought personally that you were wrong, I would nevertheless not want to
discourage questions of lexicology here--they definitely are appropriate to
this list. But my comment about theological speculation was not directed at
all toward you, but rather toward (PROS: 'in regard to') discussion of
'relatedness' as a motif in John's gospel.
(2) Yes, it IS a Greek list, and our welcome message sent to all new
subscribers does say: "Anyone interested in New Testament Studies is
invited to subscribe, but the list will assume at least a working knowledge
of Biblical Greek." Beginning learners of Greek are certainly welcome on
the list, but the manner in which questions are put do seem to indicate
that some subscribers who are posting are working primarily from a
translation and asking questions about what they are told in a reference
work about the Greek text being translated, i.e. that the questioner is not
really a student of Greek at all. I certainly wouldn't want to urge lurkers
who don't know any Greek to unsubscribe, but I think it SHOULD be
understood that list discussion is based on an assumption that posters are
knowledgeable to some extent--even if only beginners--in Biblical Greek.
What I would really urge any lurkers who are not students of Greek to
BECOME students of Greek in a serious way.
At 5:41 AM -0400 6/4/99, Donald L. Shaffer wrote:
>On 06/03/99, ""Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>" wrote:
>>
>> The input I was eager to get into this discussion with my long and pedantic
>> response was that one really does well to START with what we are told by
>> lexicons and grammars about the meanings of prepositions and particles
>> before launching into a speculative wild goose chase.
>
>It was *because* of starting with the lexicon that I went to using context.
> The lexicon said that PROS was much more often translated as something
>else rather than "with." I wanted to determine for myself whether it
>really meant "with" in a way that would exclude Him from being the one He
>was with.
But a lexicon is not primarily a tool intended for use of those who are not
students of Greek at some level; the value of a good, unabridged lexicon
resides in many of the kinds of information it offers, among them (not
necessarily in order of importance): (1) etymological background, if
relevant, is likely to be given--this isn't necessarily a key to actual
usage at any particular period of the language, but it can be helpful to
reveal the starting point from which the range of semantic usage developed;
(2) systematized accounts of major meanings and derivative meanings of the
word in question; (3) phrases or sentences from Greek authors that
illustrate precisely what the editor sees as essential to a particular
usage. Ultimately I think it is these phrases and sentences--and one will
find these also in a really good Greek grammar like Smyth or BDF--that are
the most useful items deserving of study, because when one is consulting
the lexicon for a word, one needs to do far more than search for the one
gloss that fits the text that spurred one to consult the lexicon; one
really needs to get some sense of the range of meanings and the contexts in
which those meanings appear. The contexts ARE of fundamental importance in
word-meaning, and one major function of any good lexicon is to help the
student understand the kinds of contexts in which a word may have a sense
either a shade or far more than a shade different from the sense it has in
other contexts. In sum, just like a GOOD dictionary, a lexicon is a tool
that is of more use to one who KNOWS the language than to one who doesn't.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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